YouTube transcript
Video ID: sOiaMquH8NU
Language: en
Captions: auto-generated

[0:00] imagine you got everything you ever
[0:01] wanted money Prestige Fame but it came
[0:05] at a steep cost 100h hour work weeks
[0:08] would you do it even if it was months on
[0:11] end would you push through and if you
[0:14] did would you know when to stop or would
[0:17] your body Force you but the thing that
[0:19] finally finally broke through my uh my
[0:21] veil of ignorance was when my body
[0:23] collapsed I've been pushing really hard
[0:25] to get through the end of the year I
[0:26] made it to Christmas Day and I woke up
[0:28] with 103° fever and so I went in I
[0:31] talked to my manager I'm like yeah I'm
[0:32] not doing this anymore not going to work
[0:33] that hard they looked to me like an
[0:35] alien the whole idea of you have a
[0:37] choice came in that week to me what if I
[0:41] said no to more work what if I said no
[0:44] to the promotion hey I'm Devin kums CPA
[0:47] MBA and I lead multi-billion dollar
[0:49] negotiations and financial advice for
[0:51] Google Cloud but for fun I also do this
[0:54] podcast ambition aligned where we take
[0:56] on high performance high potential
[0:59] individual uals who made career
[1:01] decisions based on values rather than
[1:03] based on money and so today my guest
[1:06] exemplifies that Eric was chief of staff
[1:09] for some of the top leaders at Google
[1:12] had a great salary secure job but
[1:14] decided to leave that all behind to
[1:16] pursue a more meaningful career in
[1:18] Executive coaching and being an author
[1:20] for his book you have a choice which
[1:22] I've read myself and I have to say is
[1:24] excellent I think we all can learn a lot
[1:26] today from him it's extremely valuable
[1:28] lesson on making value based decisions
[1:31] for your life so you're heading the
[1:33] right direction you've had some moments
[1:35] in your career that look wildly
[1:37] successful on paper yet internally you
[1:39] felt like something was off something
[1:41] was maybe breaking can you take us back
[1:43] to one of those moments what did it feel
[1:46] like and when did you realize that
[1:47] something had to change it is one of the
[1:49] kind
[1:50] of um different from the inside and
[1:53] outside on the outside I'm in this
[1:56] position where I'm meeting with the VPS
[1:58] of Google regularly I
[2:01] the you know leading the discussions
[2:03] about their business strategy reviewing
[2:05] their you know taking taking
[2:07] responsibility for the budget for the
[2:09] revenue projections um I'm in all the
[2:12] rooms for it
[2:13] matters and I'm also working 10000 hours
[2:16] a week and I've been doing that for
[2:17] almost three years now and I have not
[2:20] done anything outside of work for those
[2:22] years because that's a lot of time to be
[2:24] spending at
[2:25] work um and I felt okay with it it's
[2:28] like well this is an opportunity you
[2:29] don't get these kind of opportunities to
[2:31] work with top Google leaders very often
[2:33] I I just have to make the most of it
[2:34] while I
[2:35] can and um I was also at the time
[2:39] gutting for a promotion uh at Google and
[2:42] like wanted to really prove I belong
[2:44] there really prove that then made a
[2:45] mistake and hire me that I could really
[2:48] play at the big the big time level and
[2:50] so my manager was telling me hey if you
[2:53] want that promotion you got to show more
[2:55] show more do more take this on take that
[2:58] on I'm like yes I will take it all on
[3:00] because I want that
[3:01] promotion
[3:03] um so you know promotion track lots of
[3:07] exposure top prestigious company
[3:10] everything looked great except for the
[3:11] fact that I was completely
[3:14] exhausted and I kept on pushing through
[3:17] I kept on pulling the late night I was
[3:19] regularly working till midnight every
[3:20] night and
[3:23] um I I was like oh that's fine that's
[3:25] just what it takes that's what it takes
[3:27] to succeed
[3:30] so the thing that kind of maybe real
[3:33] well there are lots of signs that I
[3:34] should have changed I didn't listen to
[3:36] them like my friends are like you're a
[3:38] workaholic and we never see you anymore
[3:40] like yeah but it's an important job I
[3:42] got to do it or at one point I was uh I
[3:46] was trying to date at the time and this
[3:48] girl that I liked was like yeah I really
[3:50] like you but I don't see you because
[3:52] you're always working like yeah but well
[3:54] you don't understand it's a really
[3:55] important job I I you know whatever and
[3:58] so that didn't work out
[4:00] um but the thing that finally finally
[4:03] broke through my uh my veil of ignorance
[4:05] was when my body collapsed I was like
[4:09] I'd been pushing really hard to get
[4:10] through the end of the year I made it to
[4:11] Christmas Day and I woke up with 103
[4:14] degree fever I was basically sick in bed
[4:16] for a week all my plans for the holidays
[4:19] evaporated because I was just too sick
[4:20] to do anything and I was like well that
[4:23] was kind of the moment that's like what
[4:25] am I doing what like this is this is
[4:28] real this is serious and CU I'm not the
[4:31] kind of person that typically gets sick
[4:33] and for me my body to collapse like that
[4:35] meant I was way way way past the red
[4:37] line so that's kind of the moment where
[4:40] the moment of Reckoning for me of is
[4:43] this really what I want to do yeah and
[4:46] what what I'm hearing let me recap that
[4:48] is and I'm sorry you had to go through
[4:50] all of that and I appreciate you sharing
[4:51] it um what I'm hearing though is your
[4:54] mind your mind was so powerful You're
[4:56] such in a high performance mindset that
[4:59] you're
[5:00] body had to be the thing that shut down
[5:02] before your mind caught up to your body
[5:04] right it was is that
[5:06] right yeah that's a great way to put it
[5:09] I mean that's something that people
[5:11] hyperforce take pride in like mind over
[5:13] matter I can push harder I can work
[5:15] harder I can overcome anything if I just
[5:19] am strong enough if I my I have enough
[5:21] willpower and like this is a
[5:23] characteristic that carried me to a lot
[5:25] of success when I was in college there
[5:28] was a time when I pushed through and did
[5:30] like two semester long projects in a
[5:31] week cuz like I needed to and I you
[5:33] slept two hours a night and I pushed
[5:34] through I made it happen and everybody
[5:36] was like you're amazing that's awesome
[5:39] you know it was a point of Pride not a
[5:41] point of like embarrassment that I
[5:42] procrastinated enough that I needed to
[5:44] do it all in the last week and you know
[5:47] that's something that I kind of grown
[5:48] proud of and and saw as a core part of
[5:50] my identity is I would just push through
[5:52] make things happen no matter
[5:55] what
[5:56] and yeah a great great trait until it
[6:00] isn't what what I think is so
[6:02] fascinating from that is well and I
[6:04] relate so much to right I'm I was Chief
[6:06] of Staff in my or at Google and I know
[6:08] what it's like to work those 100 hour
[6:10] weeks and it's easy to say that but when
[6:11] you do that for years on end the toll it
[6:14] takes the toll stress takes on your body
[6:16] is just enormous and people don't
[6:18] recognize it you know people say hey if
[6:21] you have more stress you'll die 20 years
[6:23] younger but you don't realize the toll
[6:25] until you're living it and so I guess my
[6:28] question to you would be how do you go
[6:31] from a place of driven performance like
[6:35] that to being confident in making a
[6:39] choice similar to your book having the
[6:41] choice to make something completely
[6:43] different become an author an executive
[6:46] coach and live a life of Freedom where
[6:49] you can reclaim your health and still
[6:52] have that high performance identity how
[6:53] did you do
[6:55] that I mean it started that week in bed
[6:58] because that was the moment where I
[7:01] first realized I had a choice before
[7:04] that I was like I don't have a choice I
[7:05] have to work these hours I have to do
[7:08] everything my manager asks of me I have
[7:09] to earn that promotion there was no
[7:11] choices there it was all I have to I
[7:13] must I can't say no if they need
[7:16] something with me I have to say
[7:19] yes all those years of 100 hour weeks it
[7:23] would never occurred to be like oh I
[7:24] don't have to do this but for some
[7:26] reason I was so burned out I was so
[7:28] exhausted I was so tired that I was like
[7:31] what would happen if I said no to some
[7:32] of these things and I was tired enough
[7:35] and I was done enough that I was ready
[7:37] to say yeah like okay maybe they'll just
[7:40] fire me on the spot if I say no and I
[7:42] would be okay living with that
[7:44] consequence they're like what what do
[7:46] you mean like that was I I can't do it
[7:49] it's too much like well if you can't
[7:51] handle the work we're going to find
[7:53] somebody that can I'm like I understand
[7:56] if you can't handle the work that's
[7:57] means your promotion's not happening
[7:59] like that is what it
[8:01] means and so they took away half my team
[8:05] they slashed my performance
[8:07] rating and the world didn't
[8:11] end that was the moment of Reckoning for
[8:14] me I'm like
[8:16] oh I had always lived in Terror of not
[8:21] delivering above
[8:23] expectations and I I said no to the
[8:26] expectations and yeah there were
[8:28] consequences but the world didn't
[8:31] end and I have the possibility there are
[8:34] possibilities now that I didn't have
[8:36] before and it was it was just this
[8:38] moment of realizing oh I can make
[8:39] different choices if I am willing to
[8:42] accept the consequences of those
[8:45] choices and I think that's a part people
[8:47] miss a lot of people miss when they
[8:48] first hear about the book they're like
[8:50] you have a choice they're like yeah but
[8:51] what's the what's the right choice how
[8:53] do I get everything that I want I'm like
[8:55] sometimes you can't but you can still
[8:57] choose what you want what from the
[9:00] options available you can still choose
[9:02] and live with the consequences of those
[9:04] actions and in my case yeah I didn't get
[9:07] the promotion I didn't get you know the
[9:10] the the upward trajectory I wanted but I
[9:12] did get my life back I did get time to
[9:15] pursue hobbies and see my friends and
[9:16] see my family again and I decided that
[9:19] was more important to me than getting
[9:20] that promotion that was the choice I
[9:23] made um and that choice that was gosh
[9:28] almost 15 years ago now um that's rever
[9:32] reverberated since then because once I
[9:34] realized I had choices I started
[9:36] exploring I started experimenting I'm
[9:37] like what if I did this what if I did
[9:39] that what if I tried this other thing
[9:41] that I never thought I could do and each
[9:44] one opened up more possibility for me
[9:46] what so here I am you know at the yeah
[9:48] no go ahead go ahead I didn't mean to
[9:49] cat you off go
[9:52] ahead uh so at that time that I you know
[9:56] had this epip mini Epiphany I would had
[9:59] been single my whole life now I'm
[10:01] married with three kids at the time I
[10:03] was like thought I'd reach you know the
[10:05] height of what I ever would I I wasn't
[10:07] get that promotion and it was only after
[10:09] that that I became the chief of staff
[10:11] and led the search ads team business
[10:13] strategy and operations team at Google
[10:15] for six years and then I became an
[10:17] executive coach and then I wrote a book
[10:19] and now I offer a bunch of other
[10:21] services all that stuff was stuff I
[10:23] created later in life in my 40s like
[10:27] people are like oh you you know you
[10:29] think about oh your your the stret of
[10:31] life is set by the time you're like know
[10:32] 25 or something like no I changed things
[10:35] in my life in an unrecognizable way in
[10:37] my 40s and part of the reason I wrote
[10:40] the book part of the reason I do these
[10:41] podcasts part of the reason I talk about
[10:43] this stuff is I just want people to know
[10:45] it's never too late you can always make
[10:46] a choice you can always CH start
[10:48] changing your life today can't change
[10:51] the past you know there's that Chinese
[10:53] proverb the best time to plant a tree is
[10:55] 20 years ago and the next best time is
[10:58] now and so I just I want people to think
[11:00] that way like now is the time if you've
[11:03] been thinking about a change try it try
[11:06] something do
[11:07] something so that's that's the message I
[11:09] want people to take away I that's a
[11:11] great message I'm curious zooming into
[11:15] that moment where you went to your boss
[11:17] and you had this health scare and you
[11:18] went to the your boss and said I'm not
[11:20] going to do this anymore I feel like
[11:22] that you mentioned that as one part of
[11:23] the story but there's a betting on
[11:25] yourself in that moment and that there's
[11:27] a immense courage to do something very
[11:30] different than you've been doing your
[11:31] whole life could you elaborate a little
[11:34] more on what that was like or how did
[11:36] you must up the courage if you will I
[11:39] wouldn't even I wouldn't say it was
[11:40] courage it was more exhaustion it was
[11:42] just like please put me out of my misery
[11:45] like if they had fired me in that moment
[11:48] I would have been happy because then I
[11:49] would have had been able to stop working
[11:51] and so it's like that the the the worst
[11:53] case outcome in some case was the best
[11:55] case outcome if I had been fired then
[11:57] like I would have had a chance to
[11:58] recover I would have been a chance to
[12:00] recharge relax and I mean in some ways
[12:05] that you know that that wasn't what
[12:06] happened but that s that was kind of
[12:08] like I kind of thought about like that
[12:10] would be the worst case outcome and I
[12:11] was okay with that and if you're okay
[12:12] with the worst case outcome it doesn't
[12:14] take much courage to do it because it's
[12:16] like okay whatever happens I'm okay with
[12:19] it and that's kind of a a sign I've
[12:22] learned and since then that you're
[12:25] living in alignment with your values and
[12:27] with your integrity that
[12:29] I this is how I want to live and I'll
[12:32] accept the consequences because no
[12:33] matter how it turns out this is the way
[12:34] I choose to be so it's something I often
[12:37] talk about with my coaching clients of
[12:39] like they're like well what's the right
[12:40] thing to do here I'm like I don't know
[12:42] but I know there's one way that's going
[12:44] to feel like your way of integrity
[12:46] that's going to be in aligned with your
[12:48] values in alignment with your
[12:50] values and that's one that like you're
[12:52] not you don't care how it turns out
[12:54] because no matter what happens you'll be
[12:55] okay with it because you lived the way
[12:57] you meant to live so in that moment so
[13:00] what I'm hearing is in that moment it
[13:02] was health and family and friends or
[13:05] promotion path and you clearly your
[13:08] values were help my my health and my
[13:10] family and friends are more important
[13:12] and then that reverberated to being much
[13:15] more success than you could have
[13:16] probably ever imagined at that
[13:19] point yeah absolutely I had no idea that
[13:21] I would have much greater success just a
[13:23] couple years down the road and um yeah
[13:26] and that I would someday have a family
[13:27] of my own like that was that that was
[13:29] unimaginable in that moment and yet here
[13:31] we are so what do you do then when since
[13:34] you're an executive coach and I I know
[13:36] you've coached many Executives
[13:40] is this is not uncommon right I most
[13:45] executives are most high performers
[13:46] Chief of Staff anyone in those Realms I
[13:49] get the sense and I've been told it
[13:51] feels like running on a treadmill and
[13:53] the speed just keeps going up the higher
[13:56] up you go you always think the next
[13:58] level is going to be the one that you
[13:59] got to take a break and delegate doesn't
[14:01] happen the 100 hours become 100 hours
[14:04] and pl like flights in between right do
[14:07] you have any indicators that you see in
[14:09] people that can help you pick up on
[14:12] someone who's heading towards
[14:16] burnout I mean the exhaustion obviously
[14:19] the working too hard the I'm so busy um
[14:23] the these are all indicators it's it's
[14:26] and this I think the the the main
[14:29] shift I invite a lot of my clients into
[14:33] is learning that delegation move of
[14:35] learning they don't have to do it all
[14:38] themselves and so that's going to be
[14:40] like the real the the one of the key
[14:43] indicators it's like they're so busy
[14:45] they're overloaded and yet they're not
[14:47] willing to give anything up it's like
[14:50] yeah no you can't can't can't choose
[14:52] both those path it's not going to
[14:54] work and they they're like well but but
[14:57] how do I give up anything this is all
[14:58] important like some of more important
[15:02] and some of it's more valuable and for
[15:05] you to get clear on what's most
[15:08] important that's what's going to let you
[15:10] you know progress in your career because
[15:13] your time has to be treated as the most
[15:16] valuable
[15:17] resource and that's the thing that
[15:20] people to miss like and I mean it's very
[15:22] common it's like you know it's like oh
[15:24] my time isn't worth anything I can just
[15:26] do you I'll do it all I had this the
[15:28] same I made the same mistake you know I
[15:30] was like oh I'll just take on more and
[15:31] I'll just do everything if I can do it I
[15:35] should do it like that was the bar it's
[15:37] like if I can do it like and as you get
[15:40] more senior in your careers as your time
[15:41] gets more valuable that's no longer a
[15:43] high enough bar is it the most valuable
[15:46] thing I can be doing with my time the
[15:48] opportunity cost of our time and energy
[15:50] becomes a key criteria to consider and
[15:53] so that's something I work with with a
[15:54] lot of my clients like yeah you could do
[15:57] this but somebody could do it
[16:00] too and they might not do it as well and
[16:02] they might not do it as fast but if you
[16:04] could spend an hour coaching them to do
[16:06] it and they go off and do 40 hours of
[16:07] work that's a much better use of your
[16:09] time than you spending six hours of your
[16:11] time doing it
[16:13] yourself is there making up those
[16:15] numbers but something like that I to no
[16:16] I totally get you it resonates and it
[16:18] reminds me of something I think I heard
[16:20] you say in a different podcast or
[16:22] something you wrote where you might have
[16:25] had an executive who couldn't figure out
[16:28] a way to do a priority because he was so
[16:29] overwhelmed and you're like well why
[16:31] don't you take a sick day why don't you
[16:32] take a sick day to do the priority and
[16:35] so yeah how do you how do you come up
[16:38] with these insights do you have a
[16:39] framework you're using when people come
[16:41] to you with problems that help you
[16:42] figure out what is their priority what
[16:45] is the choice they should be leaning
[16:49] into
[16:51] um I don't know if I have a I mean I
[16:53] have a lot of Frameworks I guess I would
[16:55] say it's like I don't have a single
[16:57] framework then like this is the way we
[16:59] do things because every situation is
[17:01] different every people every person is
[17:02] different I have a lot of principles I
[17:04] try to apply but like in that case you
[17:07] the idea was look if you were out
[17:10] sick the team would figure out how to
[17:12] get by without you for a day it'd be
[17:14] fine so take a sick day and do this
[17:17] thing that you've been putting off for
[17:18] four months that you are telling me is
[17:21] the most important strategic thing at
[17:22] the company that's going to set the
[17:23] future direction of the company but you
[17:25] don't have time to do it because you're
[17:26] responding to slack no I that's
[17:31] unacceptable it's an expensive slack
[17:33] line you know it's a very expensive
[17:36] message yeah I was like this is
[17:38] unacceptable like no you cannot think
[17:40] that way and I'm kind of picking a
[17:42] little bit on this one guy but it's it's
[17:44] this you would be surprised how many
[17:46] people are like that like oh I have to
[17:47] be I don't want to be the blocker for
[17:49] other people I have to be available
[17:51] because what if they get stuck cuz I'm
[17:53] not there like then they get stuck and
[17:56] they'll figure it out or they'll wait
[17:58] till you're back but if you can go get
[18:00] some incredibly valuable strategic work
[18:03] done with that time that's going to be
[18:05] more valuable to the company than
[18:07] responding
[18:09] quickly but it's hard to think that way
[18:11] and I get it it's it is really hard to
[18:13] think that way because maybe you go off
[18:14] for two hours think about the strategy
[18:16] come back with nothing it's not
[18:17] measurable there's no concrete action
[18:20] there's no concrete sign of progress
[18:22] whereas if like you're there and you're
[18:23] busy and you're answered 15 messages in
[18:25] that time you can feel so much better
[18:27] about yourself I did something
[18:29] today and I think that's part of the uh
[18:32] the shift as well that I talked to my a
[18:33] lot of my clients about is letting go of
[18:35] that dop dopam Rush of doing things so
[18:38] they can actually think about where do
[18:40] we
[18:42] go yeah so um what on that point like
[18:45] that's something I've been thinking a
[18:46] lot about it's like Direction matters
[18:50] far more than effort as a leader you can
[18:54] put a lot of effort in going the wrong
[18:55] way and that's wasted effort doesn't
[18:59] matter how hard you work if you're go in
[19:00] the wrong direction yeah that's
[19:01] something I as a leader go ahead go
[19:03] ahead sorry I didn't mean to catch you
[19:04] off I'm just excited because that's
[19:06] that's something I've been really
[19:07] interested about lately too is how do
[19:10] you choose the right direction
[19:12] especially as you move up so many
[19:15] options become available to you and it's
[19:17] most of them you can't measure the cost
[19:19] you can't measure the upside either
[19:21] there's risks there's
[19:23] trade-offs and
[19:25] MH I'm curious from your own life you
[19:28] bet on yourself
[19:29] you you did something most people never
[19:32] would ever dream of you got to Google
[19:34] you got a prestigious job and then you
[19:36] bet on yourself and started being an
[19:39] executive coach which when you started
[19:41] was was a lot less popular than it is
[19:42] today and it's not that popular even
[19:44] today it's still pretty
[19:46] unknown
[19:48] how how did you choose that goal for
[19:50] yourself or and how do how do you make
[19:52] sure that how are you confident that was
[19:54] the right direction for
[19:57] you well
[19:59] I guess I'll there's two parts to that
[20:01] like I didn't know it was the right goal
[20:03] for me I it was something it was
[20:05] interesting idea when I first started
[20:07] considering it 10 years ago um I was
[20:10] like I was ready for something new I
[20:12] didn't know what
[20:14] and the um the specific story here is I
[20:18] was at this like retreat talking to some
[20:21] other people and I was complaining about
[20:23] my chief of staff job and I said they're
[20:25] not measuring me on the right things and
[20:27] the person I was talking to said what
[20:29] are the right things how do you want to
[20:31] be measured like oh man I have no idea
[20:34] how to answer that
[20:37] question that's a good question then
[20:39] that's the right question
[20:41] yeah I was like oh well I have to go
[20:43] like reflect for like a few months here
[20:45] to figure out that figure that out and
[20:48] so I did and I started thinking about
[20:49] like what how do I want my how do I want
[20:51] to measure my life what does success
[20:53] mean for me what is a life well- lived
[20:56] and I kept coming back to this idea that
[20:59] helping people reach their potential
[21:00] helping people get unstuck and find
[21:02] their way forward that was the thing
[21:04] that really energized me it motivated me
[21:07] I was excited about it my friend was
[21:09] like uh that's called coaching dude you
[21:11] should go be check out coaching I'm like
[21:13] that's a thing you like you can just go
[21:15] do that they're like just just go check
[21:17] it
[21:18] out and most people think like oh man
[21:21] then you must have just quit your job
[21:22] and become a coach immediately no I'm
[21:25] not that kind of person I'm very
[21:27] conservative I mean I have a really good
[21:29] job at Google why would I give that up
[21:31] so there that started a three-year
[21:32] process to check out is this the right
[21:35] fit for me I started off by doing it for
[21:38] free Reach Out reach out to people I
[21:40] knew like hey does anyone want some free
[21:41] mentoring and coaching does everyone
[21:42] want to talk to me a bunch of people
[21:44] said yes and I would talk to them I
[21:46] would help them like man this is so
[21:47] helpful
[21:49] like I like doing it and they like
[21:52] hearing from me okay good that's a good
[21:54] start then I went and interviewed a
[21:56] bunch of professional coaches like what
[21:57] does it mean how do you get started like
[21:59] how does this work and they all gave me
[22:01] some insights and they said you know
[22:05] even if you're a natural at this you
[22:06] should still go get into a training
[22:08] program because that'll give you this
[22:09] formal framework to fall back on like
[22:11] that that seems to make sense okay I'll
[22:13] buy that and so first I did like a
[22:15] little you know weekend Workshop a
[22:17] two-day workshop like that was fun and
[22:19] then after that I signed up for the
[22:20] year-long workshop still working at
[22:22] Google at this point in fact I got
[22:24] Google to pay for the the coaching the
[22:26] training so I'm doing that on nights and
[22:28] weekends and uh while doing my day job
[22:30] it's a lot of work but I'm like I really
[22:32] want to do it and I'm learning a lot and
[22:34] I'm loving it I'm going deeper into
[22:36] coaching and as part of the program I'm
[22:38] starting to coach some actual clients
[22:40] and still loving it still helping people
[22:43] still feeling like I want to do more of
[22:44] it so I get through the program I'm now
[22:46] certified as a coach and I'm still like
[22:50] not ready to quit my job because just
[22:52] cuz I like it doesn't mean it's a
[22:54] business a business is something where
[22:56] people will pay me to do this
[22:59] yeah especially if you're leaving the
[23:00] kushy Google job right so exactly it's
[23:03] very important to find out like there's
[23:05] uh this book uh so good they can't
[23:07] ignore you by Cal Newport he's like yeah
[23:10] following your passion is idiotic you
[23:11] can be passion about stuff and be
[23:13] terrible at it he gives the example of
[23:15] somebody that's like passionate about
[23:16] yoga they take out all their savings
[23:17] they open a yoga studio and they go
[23:18] bankrupt in six months because they're
[23:20] not actually good at teaching
[23:22] yoga
[23:24] yeah I was like that's I don't want that
[23:26] to be me not going to do that so so I
[23:28] started coaching business on the side
[23:31] got people to pay me and once I had
[23:33] enough clients that was starting to
[23:34] interfere with my day job that's when I
[23:36] took the leap and said okay now I'm
[23:38] ready to go for it and even then I was
[23:41] like and I'm going to put away this you
[23:43] know 18 months of savings just to be
[23:45] safe if I get through a year and that
[23:48] money is not if I'm not making enough
[23:49] money by that point then I have six
[23:51] months to go find a job and honestly you
[23:55] know the the real thing that was helpful
[23:56] here was realizing it's not a one-way
[24:00] door I'd worked at Google for 10 years
[24:02] at that point I had a lot of contact I
[24:04] had a lot of people that trusted me if I
[24:06] came back in a year begging for a job
[24:08] somebody would have given me something
[24:10] like my backup plan was a job at
[24:13] Google and when you know when you think
[24:15] about things that way like again what's
[24:16] my worst case scenario that's my worst
[24:18] case scenario is probably getting a job
[24:20] at Google at that point there's no risk
[24:24] like it's just not that big a deal you
[24:26] know just like when I burned out my my
[24:28] worst case scenario is like I get fired
[24:30] I actually get to relax and recover that
[24:32] doesn't sound so bad so like actually
[24:34] thinking through the worst case
[24:35] scenarios and going like wait can I live
[24:37] with that if I can live with that what's
[24:38] the risk or can I reverse the decision
[24:41] like in that like I could leave Google
[24:42] and I could come back in a year I think
[24:45] it I even checked it out there was like
[24:46] this policy at that point where if you
[24:48] wanted to come back 364 days after your
[24:51] resignation date they would take you
[24:52] back without interviews so I was like
[24:54] okay I've got 364 days to figure out if
[24:56] this is going to work for me that's
[24:57] hilarious I didn't know about that
[24:59] that's hilarious you know I don't know
[25:01] if that's still true they probably got
[25:02] rid of that at some point but it was but
[25:04] it was just like so it looks very
[25:07] courageous and brave from the outside
[25:10] but i' taken all these steps to build
[25:12] trust that this was a good direction for
[25:13] me and that's something I really cover
[25:15] in the book is like I'm not saying you
[25:18] change your life based on one Epiphany
[25:20] I'm saying you start running experiments
[25:22] small safe tiny experiments 30 minutes a
[25:26] week to try something different to
[25:28] explore the possibilities to see what's
[25:30] out there that's not what you're already
[25:32] doing if you keep doing those
[25:34] experiments you will find directions
[25:37] that work for you I guarantee it because
[25:39] you're trying stuff you're learning so
[25:42] that's what I really try want people to
[25:44] get the hang of it's like you don't have
[25:46] to know the right direction nobody does
[25:49] but you got to pick a direction and
[25:51] start trying things and see if that
[25:52] direction works for
[25:54] you sorry one more analogy I'll throw in
[25:56] here go uh
[25:58] um I used to hate dating I was
[26:01] hopelessly single for most of my
[26:02] life and long story about therapy and
[26:06] blah blah blah but eventually I went
[26:08] into eventually I realized the problem
[26:10] was I was going into every date first
[26:12] date with the question is this the right
[26:15] person for me is this my soulmate is
[26:17] this the person I want to spend the rest
[26:18] of my life with is this the right person
[26:22] for
[26:23] me that's an impossible question answer
[26:25] at a first date it was incredibly Stress
[26:28] and Anxiety producing and eventually I
[26:31] realized the only question I had to
[26:33] answer on the first date was do I want
[26:35] to go on another date with this
[26:38] person and at the next date I just have
[26:40] to answer do I want to go on yet one
[26:41] more date that's all I have to answer do
[26:44] I take the next step so to answer your
[26:46] question like how do I know it's the
[26:48] right direction you don't have to know
[26:50] you just have to be confident enough to
[26:51] take one more step in that direction if
[26:54] you decide it's not the right direction
[26:56] you go a different direction that's it
[26:59] it's not as it's not as all or nothing
[27:01] as we make it out to be wow yeah I love
[27:05] that idea of experiments and not taking
[27:07] it so seriously I think everyone had
[27:10] there's so many books saying find your
[27:12] why find your calling in life and your
[27:14] just really flips that on its head and
[27:16] says why don't you just try something
[27:18] new and if you keep liking it just keep
[27:20] going that direction and that might be
[27:22] the right way right am I getting that
[27:24] right absolutely that's what I'm saying
[27:26] it's like try something because where
[27:28] you are isn't working for you by the way
[27:30] this is only if it's not working for you
[27:32] like the very first line of my book is
[27:34] how do you feel about your life if you
[27:36] love it this book isn't for you keep
[27:39] doing what you're doing because it's
[27:41] working but if if your life is not what
[27:43] you wanted it to be don't keep doing the
[27:46] same thing because it's not giving you
[27:48] the results you want try something
[27:50] different that's like if I if I submm
[27:53] the book in like two sentences that's it
[27:55] it's not working for you try something
[27:57] different yeah but that takes it's funny
[28:00] it sounds so simple but then for people
[28:02] to even recognize that they're in that
[28:05] rut is a huge leap for a lot of people
[28:07] and so I'm really curious this I can't
[28:10] get rid of this question in my head for
[28:12] about you and your story in that moment
[28:13] when you turned in your resignation for
[28:15] Google even though you had done all
[28:17] those experiments and you knew it was a
[28:19] good path for you was there any fear any
[28:24] doubt there was uh a bit not at that
[28:28] moment but until like a month
[28:30] beforehand um but there were two things
[28:33] that solidified it for me um one was I
[28:36] had to get my wife to
[28:38] agree important that's very important
[28:41] Eric so yeah I had just we had we were
[28:44] just getting married our first kid was
[28:46] on the way and I'm like so I know this
[28:49] is crazy because we have a kid on the
[28:50] way but I'm thinking about leaving
[28:52] Google and doing this coaching thing and
[28:55] I know I can't do it cuz I have to
[28:56] provide for the family and we need
[28:57] stability and she was like no you should
[28:59] do it like I'm sorry what she like of
[29:02] course you should do it like that was
[29:04] not the answer I
[29:05] expected and she well first of all it
[29:08] helps that my wife is an engineer at
[29:09] Apple so we're going to have one big
[29:11] stable job in the family um but her
[29:14] point was look I see you on the days
[29:17] that you do your Google job and you come
[29:19] home exhausted and beaten up and tired
[29:22] and drained and I see you on the days
[29:24] when you do even one coaching call and
[29:27] you're full of life and energized and
[29:29] excited and passionate and that's the
[29:31] man I want to be with like okay well
[29:35] that that's far more support than I
[29:37] expected so yes and even then I was
[29:40] still doubting it I'm like man is it
[29:42] irresponsible for me got a new kid I've
[29:45] got you know this great job like how can
[29:48] I walk away from
[29:49] it and I had a coach of my own at the
[29:51] time and she said asked me like is this
[29:55] the example you want to set for your son
[29:58] that should stick with a job that you
[30:00] hate that is draining your life for the
[30:02] sake of the money is money that
[30:05] important I was like damn like that's
[30:08] that's a tough
[30:10] question but as soon as she asked it I
[30:12] knew what the answer was like oh okay no
[30:14] I'm pretty clear this is I this is
[30:15] something I have to at least try if I
[30:17] try it and I fail at least I'll know but
[30:20] I I got to at least try it and six years
[30:23] later I'm still trying it and still
[30:25] haven't failed and just got to keep
[30:27] trying one more you know one day at a
[30:29] time one month at a time that's where I
[30:31] am I just had someone on I I love what
[30:33] he said he said just keep failing until
[30:36] you fail at failing and you'll be all
[30:38] right
[30:39] you it's pretty good yeah yeah yeah if
[30:42] you if you get if you get over the fear
[30:44] of failure it's it's huge it makes such
[30:47] a difference you're like you're not
[30:48] scared if you're not scared of failing
[30:50] and I mean I'm I say that like a t I'm
[30:52] still scared of feeling I'm still scared
[30:53] of looking like a fool but um but it's
[30:57] something that I think it's so important
[31:00] in my family with my kids I I we have
[31:03] this I I we have this family motto now
[31:06] like if you fall down my kids will yell
[31:08] out get back up oh that's awesome that's
[31:11] so
[31:12] cool and we do biking we do skiing we do
[31:15] all sorts of different activities and
[31:17] they're like my daughter we were on a
[31:18] ski slope the other just over the
[31:20] weekend and she took a bad fall she's
[31:22] like sliding head first down the hill
[31:23] for like 20 feet before I was able to
[31:25] catch her and pick her up and she's
[31:27] freaked out out takes her a little while
[31:29] to calm down and then I said what do we
[31:31] do if we fall she's like get back up
[31:33] they took off down the slope again I'm
[31:35] like okay I'm doing something right
[31:37] that's that's being a good parent right
[31:39] there you really drilled that in and
[31:41] I've heard of that people parents
[31:42] talking about getting their families
[31:44] together at a table and the exercise of
[31:47] every night being hey did you try did
[31:49] you fail at something today and if you
[31:50] didn't then you didn't try hard enough
[31:52] you didn't try something new you we want
[31:54] to fail and I mean that's really cool
[31:56] Eric yeah I haven't gone that far yet
[31:59] that that feels a little too vulnerable
[32:01] to me but maybe that's something I
[32:03] should try with my kids maybe not every
[32:04] day but once a week like hey what's your
[32:07] biggest failure of the week let's all
[32:08] share yeah weekly sounds but daily
[32:10] sounds a little intense it's like crap I
[32:12] gotta fail again today this brutal man
[32:15] again can I have a day
[32:17] off yeah let's start I'm gonna start a
[32:19] little easier than that for me I think I
[32:22] think what's so interesting about what
[32:24] you're saying and what resonates so much
[32:25] with me and I'm glad you shared is the
[32:27] wrestling with doubt even though you
[32:30] knew the worst case scenario was you're
[32:32] going to get your job back you knew you
[32:34] had some Financial Security you had a
[32:36] backup
[32:38] job but it was still tough to make that
[32:40] decision you still struggle with doubt
[32:42] until you envisioned a future for
[32:45] yourself where you are role modeling
[32:47] your behavior for your son and that's
[32:50] something I've noticed you know coming
[32:51] from being homeless at one time and
[32:53] having no
[32:54] family to where I am now I find it's
[32:57] harder to make
[32:58] decisions when you've actually have
[33:01] something than when you have nothing
[33:02] when I had nothing it wasn't too so bad
[33:04] it's like oh someone took my five bucks
[33:06] I can't buy a sandwich well life screwed
[33:09] anyways all right buddy let's let's go
[33:11] it's fine I'll go get a beer instead but
[33:13] when you have something when you have
[33:15] the money when you have the prestige
[33:17] maybe it's an ego issue it's really
[33:19] tough to Let It Go for potential right
[33:23] that's the potential of something new
[33:25] especially as we get older and so
[33:28] yeah I mean that's just human nature
[33:30] though I mean what's his name um Daniel
[33:34] conman talks about the loss of version
[33:36] like losing something that we have feels
[33:38] like twice as bad as gaining something
[33:39] that we don't have like it's just that
[33:41] is how we are wired as humans and so
[33:44] when you have something and you think
[33:45] about giving it up or losing it like it
[33:47] feels bad that's that's how it feels and
[33:52] it's a cognitive bias and if you know it
[33:54] you can adjust for it and compensate for
[33:56] it and and
[33:58] um do that but yeah it's it's hard to
[34:00] give up something when you have when you
[34:02] know what you have it's like the bird in
[34:05] the hands worth two in the bush kind of
[34:07] thing it's just we like certainty and
[34:12] it's hard yeah hard to overcome that but
[34:15] sometimes the what you get on the other
[34:17] side is even
[34:18] better yeah and you won't find out
[34:21] unless you try yeah that is micro
[34:24] experimenting right we got to do those
[34:25] experiments to try I'm curious too
[34:28] yeah it's easy to overlook the aspect of
[34:31] going from an employee mindset to a
[34:33] owner mindset they're very different
[34:35] things you show up to work you get your
[34:37] paycheck you're not hunting for your
[34:39] food every day you know there's a lot of
[34:42] other aspects you have to running a
[34:44] business how did you go about changing
[34:47] your mindset over
[34:52] time I
[34:54] guess I maybe I I guess I never really
[34:58] had the a good employee mindset I mean I
[35:00] had to some extent but I you my first
[35:04] many jobs were at small startups where
[35:06] it's like we had to work we had to work
[35:10] to make the company succeed
[35:11] together and we all had to take
[35:14] ownership of the results because the
[35:16] company wouldn't succeed if we didn't
[35:17] work together and so that's kind of how
[35:21] the first 10 years of my career was like
[35:23] was thinking in that way and then I
[35:25] joined Google and then it's like oh I'm
[35:26] part of this big machine is going to
[35:27] succeed no matter what I do um but I was
[35:30] still thinking that way I would be like
[35:32] no we got to do this and people like
[35:34] that's that's not your job I'm like yeah
[35:36] but like it's a right thing to do for
[35:37] the company so let's figure out how to
[35:39] do it and people looked at me like I was
[35:41] like what are you doing I I still
[35:43] remember I had this um my first or
[35:46] second year my probably first year at
[35:47] Google I was arguing with this other
[35:49] department in finance and I'm like hey
[35:51] we need your help on this thing it's a
[35:52] company priority it's really good change
[35:55] things and they're like no I'm not going
[35:57] to help you like what do you mean like
[35:59] it's not on my okrs if it was important
[36:01] it would be on my okrs I'm like it came
[36:03] up last week well if it was really
[36:05] important my VP would change my
[36:08] okrs been there man been
[36:11] there like are you kidding me like how
[36:15] will I convince you that this is
[36:16] important like show some initiative man
[36:18] and they're like they were just stuck on
[36:20] like no I'm evaluated based on like how
[36:22] I do against my okrs and there's nothing
[36:25] you can say that will change that I was
[36:27] like I do not know how to talk to you so
[36:31] like that the other that other person
[36:32] had the employee mindset like I do it
[36:34] what I'm told and that's it no
[36:36] initiative whatsoever and that just
[36:38] never sat well with me I'm always like
[36:40] what no but what's the right thing to do
[36:42] how do we make the right thing happen
[36:43] for the company and so to answer your
[36:46] question I think I already always had a
[36:47] bit of that owner mindset even when I
[36:50] was also being a people pleaser and
[36:53] trying to make my manager happy um and
[36:56] so it wasn't that big of a shift for me
[36:59] um learning how to do sales and
[37:00] marketing that's that's something I'm
[37:01] still struggling with but you know
[37:03] that's that's constant experimentation
[37:05] and honestly learning to copy what works
[37:07] from other people okay that that's
[37:10] fascinating I think that's helpful to
[37:12] understand that you can take that owner
[37:14] mindset without being the owner yet
[37:17] right for everyone who's listening you
[37:19] you can take that ownership mindset and
[37:20] that'll carry over it sounds like a
[37:22] carried over for
[37:23] you oh absolutely no I I mean this is
[37:26] what it means to to
[37:28] to get to an executive level whether
[37:30] you're at a big company or small company
[37:31] is you start to take ownership of the
[37:33] results like you know it's as an
[37:36] employee it's like my job is do what I'm
[37:38] told if I deliver on my tasks and I
[37:41] check things off the list then I'm
[37:44] successful but the company being a
[37:48] executive at a company means the company
[37:50] has to succeed the company results are
[37:53] what matter and it doesn't matter if you
[37:54] did all the wrong if you put in all the
[37:56] work and the results aren't there
[37:58] again effort is not the metric of
[38:00] success working hard is not enough you
[38:03] have to work out hard on the right
[38:04] things that have an impact you have to
[38:06] do what's important you have to
[38:08] prioritize and you have to set the
[38:10] direction as we were talking about
[38:11] before so you can practice that as an
[38:14] employee because if you start thinking
[38:16] that way people are going to give you
[38:17] more to do I guarantee it because you're
[38:19] helping them succeed you're delivering
[38:22] results and to your point about the the
[38:24] person that said like just keep failing
[38:26] like if what you're doing isn't working
[38:27] to get the results try something else
[38:29] keep trying things keep experimenting
[38:32] learning from your mistakes trying
[38:33] different things and when you can
[38:35] deliver results on command that is a
[38:39] skill that will get you promoted or
[38:41] you'll just take off and do your own
[38:42] thing which is also great yeah it seems
[38:45] to be working for you okay I want one I
[38:46] want to pull apart on this thread one
[38:48] more one more time I'm
[38:52] curious you mentioned earlier how you
[38:57] went
[38:58] almost fell in love with coaching if I'm
[38:59] saying it the right way like your wife
[39:01] noticed yeah that you were happier the
[39:03] days you coached rather than when you
[39:04] were at
[39:05] Google so many people I've met have that
[39:09] love affair with something when they
[39:11] first experiencing it and then five
[39:14] years in They Se they doubt themselves
[39:17] how how's that going for you for you
[39:19] today is it are you as passionate as you
[39:21] were before even more passionate or are
[39:24] you finding new ways to explore a deeper
[39:28] relationship with
[39:30] coaching I
[39:32] am at least as maybe more passionate
[39:35] that I was five years ago like I had
[39:38] just last Thursday I had like two
[39:41] coaching calls and two intro chats I was
[39:43] just like life is good like I did good
[39:46] work today like there's that um there's
[39:49] a quote from David White who's a poet
[39:52] who also sometimes coach is it's like so
[39:55] he something like good work done well
[39:58] for the right reasons with an end in
[40:00] mind end in mind and I just I heard that
[40:04] once on a podcast with him and I'm like
[40:05] that that's success I did good work
[40:08] today I did it well I did it for the
[40:11] right reasons I did it for a good
[40:13] purpose like that's it and like coaching
[40:16] still feels that for me I could do it I
[40:18] do it well I do it to help
[40:20] people and and I get paid to do it it's
[40:24] like well okay that's I am very lucky to
[40:27] have found that intersection for me
[40:29] between things people need and will pay
[40:32] for and things I'm good at and that's
[40:35] that's what makes for a good business
[40:37] and things I love like that so not only
[40:39] am I good at it I love doing it like so
[40:41] valuable I love doing it and I'm good at
[40:43] it like that's the intersection where if
[40:45] you can find that you're gonna you're
[40:47] going to have a pretty good pretty good
[40:49] working life oh yeah that Jacks the
[40:51] position from you working a 100
[40:53] hours really killing yourself quite
[40:56] literally killing yourself for a high
[40:58] Prestige job versus now you are helping
[41:03] people directly it seems like you just
[41:05] even mentioning it I could see it on
[41:06] your face how much more passionate you
[41:08] are and how more meaningful it is to you
[41:11] nowadays absolutely and I want to be
[41:14] clear like I make a fraction of the
[41:15] money I used to make at
[41:17] Google like I am not I'm not killing it
[41:20] from a revenue perspective but I make
[41:22] enough and I think that's something
[41:24] that's easy to forget in America it's
[41:25] like there is such a thing is enough you
[41:28] don't always have to earn more and yeah
[41:30] if IID stayed at Google I'd be making a
[41:32] lot more money now I'd probably be a
[41:33] director I'd probably have yeah make a
[41:36] lot more
[41:36] money but I don't think I'd be happy and
[41:41] that was the choice I made you have a
[41:43] choice and I feel like I would choose
[41:45] control of my time be able to be present
[41:47] with my kids feeling good about the work
[41:50] I do each day that's what I chose over
[41:52] the money and you know I could put it I
[41:55] could put a number on it I I know
[41:56] exactly how much money I gave up
[41:59] and for me that was the right choice and
[42:02] again like I have a lot of privilege
[42:04] going on here like I had 10 years at
[42:06] Google I had the savings where I could
[42:08] afford to do this I have a wife that
[42:09] works at Apple I got a lot of Tailwinds
[42:11] in my direction to let that let me make
[42:13] that choice pretty easily other people
[42:15] don't have that those Tailwinds and it's
[42:17] a lot harder so like I'm not saying like
[42:21] happily ever after for everybody that
[42:22] tries this route I know a bunch of
[42:24] people who try coaching who love
[42:25] coaching they try it they can't make
[42:27] business the financials work and they
[42:28] have to go find something else to do and
[42:31] that's okay too like we do the best we
[42:34] can with the cards that we have but
[42:37] again I just ask people to try something
[42:39] different if what you're doing isn't
[42:40] working for
[42:41] you yeah and well I think what's so
[42:44] powerful there is your values driven
[42:47] approach where if there is something
[42:50] more important to you and there and I
[42:52] met enough people in my life where they
[42:53] worked 100 hour week day weeks and they
[42:56] still wanted do more that promotion and
[42:58] that pay is the most important thing to
[42:59] them that's their Center value that's
[43:01] okay no judgment that's your
[43:03] thing go for it but if you want
[43:07] something more balanced I do feel as a
[43:10] society we put money on a pedestal even
[43:13] when we might have different values
[43:15] personally and that's what I think it
[43:16] takes courage that's a c courageous
[43:18] thing to do not a not a lot of people
[43:20] would look at taking a pay cut and a
[43:23] Prestige cut and uh and all of that like
[43:27] talking to your parents and imagine
[43:29] telling your dad or telling your mom hey
[43:31] by the way I'm going to quit Google and
[43:32] do coaching it's not it doesn't there's
[43:35] a social stigma I guess I'm saying and
[43:37] so I want to encourage everyone that
[43:39] that's okay that's okay to lean into
[43:41] things that might be social stigmas
[43:43] because maybe society's wrong right
[43:45] maybe there's a better way to live yeah
[43:48] yeah and I guess what I'll say there is
[43:51] like who are the stakeholders that
[43:53] matter to you cuz I think that was a
[43:56] mistake I made in my life up until the
[43:58] time I burned out was I treated
[44:00] everyone's opinion as equally important
[44:03] I had to keep everybody happy and that's
[44:05] just not sustainable because you're
[44:07] going to be twisted into knots and torn
[44:09] in different
[44:11] directions there's this saying that
[44:12] you're the average of the five people
[44:14] that you spend the most time with and
[44:17] what I take that away from that is like
[44:18] yeah these are the people these are the
[44:20] people that are going to affect your
[44:21] decision so surround yourself with
[44:24] people that align with your values that
[44:26] are the kind of people whose life you
[44:28] want to
[44:29] have and so you know like yeah I was on
[44:32] the track to get promoted to directory
[44:34] Google and I could see all the directors
[44:37] and they were unhappy and kind of
[44:38] miserable and working too hard and I'm
[44:40] just like I don't want that job like
[44:43] they're like this is what you need to do
[44:44] to get promoted I'm like yeah I don't
[44:45] want that promotion that that that looks
[44:48] miserable and and my my manager was so
[44:51] confused she's like what do you mean you
[44:53] don't want the promotion I'm like yeah
[44:55] no no that's not what I want for my life
[44:56] they're like
[44:58] and it was alien to her CU her whole
[45:00] life had driven by getting the next
[45:02] promotion and for me to say no it's like
[45:04] you are not operating by The Playbook
[45:06] here and I was like yeah I'm not and
[45:10] that's that's okay because I by that
[45:12] point I had other role models in my life
[45:15] people who were coaches who had gone
[45:16] this independent route and who I was
[45:20] like I want to be more like them that's
[45:21] who I to that's what I want my life to
[45:23] be
[45:24] like so I guess yeah it was courageous
[45:28] but it was also just kind of looking at
[45:30] my options and saying like the these are
[45:32] the role models I want to emulate and
[45:34] these are the people who's are my
[45:36] anti-roll models these are what I want
[45:37] to
[45:38] avoid and um yeah I think that's
[45:41] something that's really important that's
[45:43] how you that's in some sense how you
[45:44] find your values you find the people
[45:45] that you
[45:46] respect and you follow them and you you
[45:50] you use them as models of what you could
[45:53] do yeah I know iterating ating and
[45:57] making new goals around a structure of a
[46:01] value based
[46:02] decisions um around your connections
[46:05] that ultimately drive your purpose and
[46:08] calling that seems like that I can't
[46:10] find a better way to articulate how
[46:13] people should approach their lives but
[46:14] you need that reflection first of having
[46:17] that moment that oh crap moment I see
[46:20] the next rung doesn't look better than
[46:23] what I have and that's a big deal
[46:24] because you had to be in a situation
[46:27] where that extra 200k a
[46:29] year what that didn't mean as much to
[46:32] you as your family and that's an
[46:34] important yeah that's a tough reflection
[46:36] to have because especially for As you
[46:39] move up everyone else starts spending
[46:41] more money too and your friends have
[46:44] those values you know cars get nicer
[46:46] houses get nicer so what would you yeah
[46:49] have you ever I know we got to land the
[46:51] plane I know I want to respect your time
[46:54] one more question and then some fires R
[46:55] questions how do you manage how do you
[46:58] manage this with the executives you're
[47:00] working with between what I might say
[47:03] the softer side the perceptual side of
[47:05] we need to work on some values here it
[47:07] sounds like you might be chasing
[47:09] something that's not really what you
[47:10] want versus behavioral
[47:14] here I I've been a consultant before and
[47:17] I know you're doing something wrong here
[47:18] like you're not acting like a leader you
[47:20] need to delegate how do you how do you
[47:21] walk that line or what do you focus on
[47:23] as a coach
[47:27] so I guess what I focus on is their own
[47:32] behavior and the reason I do that is
[47:35] because that's the one thing we control
[47:37] like you can't control other people the
[47:39] one thing you can change is how do you
[47:41] show up in a
[47:42] situation
[47:44] and I mean nobody comes to me because
[47:47] they're like happy and doing great
[47:49] because if they're happy and doing great
[47:50] they wouldn't hire a coach I like so
[47:53] there's something going on that made
[47:55] them think you know what I could use a
[47:59] coach and I guess what I the first thing
[48:02] I do I don't take a I don't like say
[48:03] let's talk about your values I say I
[48:06] basically hold up a mirror to them I'm
[48:08] like this is your
[48:10] life and this is your and like I see how
[48:13] tired you are how exhausted you are how
[48:15] drained you
[48:16] are and they're like yeah I really don't
[48:19] I don't I don't like it I don't want to
[48:21] live this way anymore great me not great
[48:25] but like great in the sense yeah you
[48:28] need that means you're ready for a
[48:30] change okay here's an experiment you can
[48:33] try this week of something different
[48:37] it's going to be like one small thing
[48:38] you could do differently in a meeting
[48:39] let's try that see what
[48:41] happens and it could be like we're going
[48:43] to block off 30 minutes in the morning
[48:46] to think about or not even 30 minutes
[48:47] take five minutes as you're drinking
[48:50] your coffee or brushing your teeth in
[48:51] the morning to think about like what's
[48:52] the one thing I want to get done today
[48:54] what's one thing that's important I'm
[48:55] going to move forward what's my priority
[48:57] for the day like that's that's a very
[48:59] simple exercise to give to a lot of
[49:01] people because that focuses them they're
[49:03] like okay if I move one thing for a day
[49:06] that turns into real progress that's
[49:07] like progress every day and they start
[49:09] to realize they can have impact if they
[49:12] focus if they choose to say yes to
[49:14] something so they can say no to other
[49:16] things because that's the hard part for
[49:18] a lot of these people they don't know
[49:19] how to say no so it's like okay but if
[49:22] you're you're not saying no if you're
[49:23] saying no I have this other thing that's
[49:25] more important
[49:27] um another typical example for a lot of
[49:30] my clients is I say they can't you're
[49:33] not allowed to say yes to any commitment
[49:34] in the moment so they get asked to do
[49:37] something like before you say yeah I can
[49:38] do that you say let me write that down
[49:41] check my other equipments I'll get back
[49:42] to you later
[49:43] today just have them do that and then
[49:46] when they actually do that they get to
[49:48] the end of day they look at all the
[49:49] things they've been asked to do it's
[49:50] like a list of 12 things that would take
[49:52] 3 days to do if they say yes to all of
[49:55] them like the bath doesn't work you
[49:57] can't do three days of work every day
[49:59] that's why they're so burned out and so
[50:01] exhausted so it's like you know just by
[50:04] forcing them to not say yes in the
[50:06] moment they can actually look at the
[50:07] listed then and go like oh crap I can't
[50:09] say yes to everything what am I going to
[50:11] say yes
[50:12] to um so those are a couple like very
[50:14] tactical Consulting style things and
[50:17] then from there I will be paying
[50:19] attention to the things that energize
[50:21] them and drain them and just again
[50:23] reflect it back to them pull hold up a
[50:26] mirror saying like this is what I'm
[50:28] seeing does that resonate let's look for
[50:31] opportunities to do more of those things
[50:32] that energize you the things that have
[50:35] impact the things that have
[50:37] meaning and then we kind of iterate our
[50:39] way to a values based approach even
[50:42] though I wouldn't call it that well like
[50:43] it it's existentialist right you're
[50:45] looking at how the Bea behaviors
[50:47] actually reflect their values rather
[50:49] than what they say about their values
[50:51] and you're mirroring that like a
[50:52] scientist right you're observing them
[50:54] and hey what did you know that you did
[50:57] this this was what you chose did you
[50:59] know that you actually chose to say yes
[51:01] to this other than this other thing
[51:02] that's cool I've never heard of that
[51:04] Eric that's a really cool and unique way
[51:06] to approach it I think that's very
[51:08] valuable I mean I was TR I I I studied
[51:10] physics in school I trained as
[51:12] experimental physicist so I I do take a
[51:14] scientist approach and you know
[51:15] experiments is my in My DNA in some
[51:17] sense so like yeah that's that's how I
[51:19] fre and I work with a lot of tech people
[51:21] that are very data driven and science
[51:23] driven and Engineering driven I'm like
[51:25] if I say like try this practice they're
[51:28] like I don't to do that like if I say
[51:30] try this experiment they're like okay
[51:31] fine I got to try the experiment to see
[51:33] what happens oh yeah speaking their
[51:35] language that's great I want to respect
[51:37] your time I know you got to log off in a
[51:39] few minutes quick fire round of
[51:41] questions and before I do that thank you
[51:43] so much for coming on this is a lot of
[51:45] fun and I hope we can do it again I'm
[51:46] going to read your book he just keeps
[51:47] getting delayed but I'm going to read it
[51:49] and I would like to talk about it more
[51:50] in details sometime if you have time it
[51:51] was really fun talking to you so um some
[51:54] fun questions first
[51:58] dessert favorite dessert uh snicker
[52:04] doodles nice cookies nice cookies are
[52:08] good what book are you reading right
[52:12] now what book am I reading right now I
[52:14] just bought two books by April Dunford a
[52:18] book on product positioning and a book
[52:20] called sales pitch I've tried to study
[52:23] sales marketing so I I just just started
[52:25] reading them last night so I don't have
[52:26] no idea how good they are but I've heard
[52:28] her talk on a podcast and she's great so
[52:30] hoping that I'll learn from her books
[52:31] let me know what's a leadership book
[52:33] that you've read more than two
[52:36] times something that you go back to
[52:39] read oh that's a good
[52:42] question uh
[52:52] huh I don't know if I have one I've read
[52:54] multiple times because I I typically
[52:56] really good notes I don't have to go
[52:57] back to them and them um I mean I guess
[53:02] the I know I've read man search for
[53:03] meeting a bunch of times like several
[53:06] times and that's not a leadership book
[53:07] but that is a book about purpose and
[53:09] meaning and how we create our own
[53:13] reality by choosing what we pay
[53:14] attention to
[53:17] um for those that don't know it's a
[53:19] story not a story it's the account of
[53:21] Holocaust Survivor and his time in the
[53:23] concentration camps and
[53:26] even in those conditions he had a choice
[53:29] of how to interpret what was happening
[53:30] to him and what he was going to live for
[53:32] and so I find it I find it very
[53:34] inspiring even if it's a bit dark in
[53:36] terms of uh topics covered I'm reading
[53:38] that right now it's Victor Frankle right
[53:40] yeah yeah yeah yeah excellent
[53:45] book what is one piece of advice that
[53:48] you hear it and you wish people would
[53:50] stop giving it as advice just bad
[53:52] generic
[53:54] advice o
[53:57] uh let me think about that
[54:04] one oh man I'm totally blinking it's
[54:07] okay we can skip it if you want
[54:09] man just give me give me a second
[54:19] um
[54:20] Prett I guess it's
[54:24] it's it's something uh I don't know it's
[54:28] not it's not necessarily generic advice
[54:29] but it's it's something
[54:32] like stop I guess my my inversion of it
[54:35] is like stop searching for the right
[54:36] thing to do you're like when you're
[54:38] before saying like yeah but how do I
[54:39] know if it's a right thing like this
[54:41] whole concept of there is a right
[54:44] answer that is terrible
[54:46] advice that's my like that's I guess
[54:49] what I would say it's like life is more
[54:51] complex than that there's no one right
[54:53] answer there's no one right way to do
[54:54] things you asked me before if I have a a
[54:56] single framework that I use for
[54:57] everybody I'm like no cuz there's not
[54:59] one right framework there's just a bunch
[55:01] of Frameworks there's a bunch of answers
[55:04] we get to choose what's right for us so
[55:08] I guess maybe that's that's the idea the
[55:11] the the generic advice is like climb the
[55:13] ladder do the right thing figure out
[55:15] it's like there is no ladder choose
[55:18] what's right for
[55:19] you that it's awesome that's something
[55:22] I'm taking away from our conversation by
[55:23] the way is the value of action over
[55:26] thinking like there's so many tools to
[55:27] overthink things but you can't really
[55:29] understand yourself and properly reflect
[55:32] until you act and make a decision that
[55:33] is powerful so with that in mind last
[55:36] piece wait okay sorry sorry you go ahead
[55:39] go you can't let it hang
[55:41] huh no like because I was fortunate that
[55:44] like so back in the day like I said I
[55:46] was a physics major I was in a PhD
[55:48] program and I wasn't happy I was not
[55:52] doing well and I but I didn't know what
[55:55] else to do with my life cuz I my whole
[55:56] life to that point like I was going to
[55:58] be a get a physics PhD go be a college
[56:00] professor try to win a Nobel Prize like
[56:02] that was the whole plan for my life from
[56:03] the time I was like 10 years old and so
[56:06] you know now like in my 20s I'm like
[56:08] crap I don't know what to do with myself
[56:09] because like that's all I've ever
[56:10] thought I was going to do and I was
[56:12] talking to a friend and saying like well
[56:14] maybe I should like spend three months
[56:16] thinking about what I should do with my
[56:18] life and really analyze and figure out a
[56:20] plan he looked at me it's like that's
[56:22] the dumbest thing I've ever heard the
[56:24] only figure only way to figure out what
[56:25] you want to do is to do things so just
[56:29] go try some stuff and that's how you'll
[56:31] figure out what you want to do and thank
[56:34] I was thankful to have gotten that
[56:35] advice because that has formed the basis
[56:37] of everything I've done since that he
[56:38] was basically saying experiment try
[56:40] things see what works for you and keep
[56:43] navigating to do more of the things that
[56:44] work for you and less of the things that
[56:45] don't and that's kind of what my career
[56:47] has been so yeah action over thinking
[56:50] absolutely 100% agree
[56:54] um that's that's a great message I would
[56:56] I want people to stay keep keep take
[56:58] away from this well you took the air out
[56:59] of my sales again my last question was
[57:01] going to be give me your top advice in
[57:03] 30 seconds and I think you did it for me
[57:05] before so unless you got another nugget
[57:07] of wisdom in there uh I guess the other
[57:11] thing I I'll add just because I can't
[57:13] resist adding things is you can't do it
[57:17] all and this is something that people
[57:19] just really don't want to believe
[57:21] they're like no I can be great at work
[57:24] and I can be a great partner and I can
[57:25] be a great parent
[57:26] and I can run triathlons in my free time
[57:28] I'm going to do it all I'm going to have
[57:29] a side business too and it's like no
[57:33] like I'm sorry you can't do it all and
[57:36] do it well because if somebody picks one
[57:38] of those says I'm just going to focus on
[57:39] work I'm sorry they're going to do
[57:41] better than you like this like it's
[57:43] their attention is not split their
[57:45] energy is not split and that's okay but
[57:49] don't delude yourself the thinking that
[57:51] 50% of your attention is better than
[57:52] somebody else's 100% attention choose
[57:55] what you want to spend your time and
[57:57] energy and attention on and live with a
[58:00] choice own that choice that's what I
[58:02] choose right now right now am I am I as
[58:05] successful a coach as I would be if I
[58:06] didn't have kids no of course not I'm
[58:09] distracted
[58:10] constantly and that's okay that's what I
[58:12] choose to do with myself that was a
[58:13] choice like I'm going to own that choice
[58:17] but yeah like I sometimes I look at
[58:18] other coaches and all they do is
[58:19] coaching I'm like I'm jealous of that
[58:22] that's the way it is like I can't do it
[58:24] all so that's kind of
[58:28] it yeah I mean that kind of ties
[58:30] together all these things like if you
[58:31] can't do it all then you have to make a
[58:33] choice then you have to choose what
[58:35] action am I going to take versus like
[58:38] trying to think through well how do I do
[58:40] it all no just let that go and pick
[58:42] something and start doing it try an
[58:45] experiment move forward and learn that's
[58:48] what I ask you to do that's awesome
[58:51] that's a great place to close I I'll
[58:52] stop recording there thank you so much
[58:53] Eric