YouTube transcript
Video ID: 5xOZXk-Ezjw
Language: en
Captions: auto-generated

[0:00] I had a chip on my shoulder. I was like,
[0:02] you know what? I want to crack through
[0:03] that glass stealing, muster up the
[0:05] courage to to strike a conversation with
[0:07] someone that lived a very different life
[0:09] from me.
[0:09] >> Soioeconomic difference of like I had no
[0:12] access to those people.
[0:13] >> I've disregarded neglected my health for
[0:16] so many years. So I'm surprised that my
[0:18] body held up as long as it it did. I
[0:21] could get choked up actually saying this
[0:22] at all.
[0:22] >> Everyone, welcome to Ambition Aligned.
[0:24] I'm Devon Kum, CPA, MBA, exg Google in
[0:27] Deote and currently a CEO and CFO
[0:29] adviser and adviser to startups in the
[0:31] Silicon Valley. Today we're talking to
[0:33] my good friend Jotham. From immigrant
[0:35] childhood to battling corporate norms,
[0:38] Jotham's story is proof that an underdog
[0:40] mentality can redefine your path. Join
[0:42] us as we uncover how to build a company
[0:44] from the ground up and his journey from
[0:46] immigrant to accountant to CEO, as well
[0:49] as a surprising reveal for his next
[0:51] chapter in his journey. Let's dive in.
[0:53] Hey Joe, really appreciate you coming
[0:55] on. It's uh it's a really a pleasure and
[0:57] I think our audience would be really
[0:59] interested in just hearing a little bit
[1:01] about yourself. How would you describe
[1:02] your journey from
[1:05] where where you started to becoming a
[1:08] CEO um after becoming an accountant?
[1:11] >> Yeah, I first of all first off Dang,
[1:13] thanks for having me here. It be a
[1:16] pleasure to be on your your show here.
[1:17] And you know, I guess I have to first
[1:19] ask you a question like how far do you
[1:21] want me to go back like from the the uh
[1:25] initiation point of of the my career or
[1:27] you know further back than that?
[1:29] >> Further back. I want where do where do
[1:31] you think your story starts? All right.
[1:33] Like how does how do you tell it in your
[1:35] head?
[1:36] >> All right. So, now that you're giving me
[1:37] permission to do that, I'm going to take
[1:39] it way back because there is and I'm
[1:40] going to try to be brief about this and
[1:42] concise, too. Um, because it does kind
[1:44] of tie in together. Um, so yeah, I think
[1:47] I mentioned a C during our my podcast
[1:49] recording, but uh my family and I
[1:51] immigrated from the Philippines when I
[1:54] was 8 years old. And so, growing up in
[1:57] my childhood, it was, you know,
[1:59] definitely not in the uh most eloquent
[2:02] of neighborhoods, let's put it that way.
[2:05] Um, you know, obviously just trying to
[2:06] get up to speed on like the language,
[2:09] the culture and so on, uh, was
[2:12] challenging. Um, but add to that, you
[2:14] know, this this twist of of growing up
[2:18] in a, you know, community that wasn't as
[2:20] affluent. Uh, and you know, I think what
[2:23] that really highlighted for me and just
[2:27] I think you um I've shared this with
[2:30] other podcast spokes
[2:35] is seeing our uh people work hard around
[2:37] us, fellow immigrants, my parents
[2:40] obviously and family.
[2:42] We wanted to make the most out of the
[2:44] opportunity despite the subpar
[2:48] circumstances, right? And so that's
[2:49] exactly what I set my heart to do. Uh
[2:53] and and so throughout school and
[2:55] college, I was one of those guys, Don,
[2:57] that work two jobs at a time at college
[3:01] um because I just needed to make it
[3:03] happen.
[3:04] One thing that I always felt I was
[3:06] limited in um when I was going through
[3:10] school and college, you know, because I
[3:11] didn't have the great um a super great
[3:14] education. my my school in high school
[3:16] wasn't like super bad, but it wasn't
[3:18] like yeah top-notch either, but I always
[3:21] felt
[3:23] it would be very hard for me to break
[3:25] through kind of like the corporate scene
[3:27] and uh you know the corporate
[3:30] environment. In other words, you know, I
[3:31] thought I was destined for like a blue
[3:33] collar job, which is fine. Like you
[3:34] know, my family was been able to support
[3:37] uh my family with um you know, very
[3:40] respectable and and high earning blue
[3:42] collar jobs. But for me, I wanted to
[3:44] break through um on on the corporate
[3:47] side. And you know, I kind of looked at
[3:48] myself and I was like, well, wait a
[3:50] minute, like these aren't the type of
[3:51] people that go on and you know, become
[3:54] CFOs or CEOs.
[3:56] uh and uh but you know in discovery and
[4:00] thankfully some of the schools that I
[4:02] went to had really great way to to help
[4:05] us explore different careers like I felt
[4:07] accounting was one that kind of offered
[4:10] that that entry point to that world that
[4:13] I wanted to um you know set a career in
[4:17] and you know that's how kind of like the
[4:19] the fund in accounting started. So I
[4:22] mean I think that's kind of like the the
[4:23] inception point so to speak for for my
[4:26] accounting journey.
[4:28] >> And so how did so how did you get
[4:29] exposed to accounting as a I guess a few
[4:32] questions let me ask them in the right
[4:33] order. So when did you move here and
[4:37] where did you move first?
[4:40] >> 1989
[4:41] in San Francisco the year and the
[4:44] earthquake for some of you that
[4:46] >> that was a big one. Yeah that was a big
[4:47] earthquake. Yeah.
[4:48] >> I was what the heck is going on here?
[4:52] 1989 and it was San Francisco.
[4:55] >> Okay. And then here, so I want to recap
[4:57] and I want make sure I'm listening and
[4:59] understanding your story. You were part
[5:01] of the family came from the Philippines,
[5:04] right?
[5:05] >> And more working class growing up in
[5:09] financial insecurity at the very least.
[5:12] and you ultimately were able to find
[5:16] this liberation or like you were kind of
[5:18] on the path of going to the general
[5:20] Filipino kind of jobs or the cultural
[5:22] jobs and you didn't accounting wasn't in
[5:24] the sphere, right? Education wasn't it
[5:27] there was no one to role model yourself
[5:28] off of in your local community. Is that
[5:31] a fair
[5:32] >> in fact I take it even a step further. I
[5:35] mean there was skepticism, right? I
[5:37] won't name who in my circle,
[5:40] you know, wanted me to be successful and
[5:43] wanted to promote careers that were more
[5:46] realistic for me. Uh, but, you know, I I
[5:50] definitely wanted to do something
[5:52] different and I wanted to stretch myself
[5:54] a little bit more. And in fact, I
[5:55] stretching is probably not the right
[5:56] word. I think if I'm being honest with
[5:58] myself, Devon, I had a chip on my
[6:00] shoulder. I was like, you know what? I
[6:02] want to crack through that glass ceiling
[6:05] and and see if someone that you know
[6:07] comes with from my background and my
[6:09] neighborhood can uh you know can break
[6:12] through that. And so yeah, I think it
[6:14] was a chip in my shoulder more than
[6:15] anything.
[6:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I respect that and I
[6:18] have similar like similar a similar
[6:22] experience that I don't think a lot of
[6:23] people will appreciate or understand
[6:25] unless they've been in it where like I
[6:27] didn't have any accountants or any
[6:29] professionals I knew in my life that I
[6:31] looked up to that seemed like they
[6:32] enjoyed their lives or I didn't even see
[6:35] it as a path until I went into college
[6:37] and I actually saw someone doing the job
[6:39] and enjoying it where then I realized
[6:41] wow this could actually this is a whole
[6:42] future that I thought was closed out to
[6:44] me. I didn't think that was a potential.
[6:46] And it sounds like that was your
[6:48] experience in college or when did when
[6:50] did you learn that? When did you when
[6:52] did that open up to you and say, "Wow, I
[6:53] don't have to follow this mold. I have a
[6:55] different path that I can go down."
[6:58] >> Yeah. Remember this distinctly? And let
[7:00] me know if I'm going way too far down
[7:02] memory lane here. Take up so much time.
[7:04] Um, but first year of college, I had no
[7:07] idea what the difference was between
[7:09] accounting, finance, like operations and
[7:12] marketing. Like I I knew, you know, I
[7:14] wanted a white collar job, wear a suit
[7:16] to work after graduation. Um but you
[7:20] know, as fate would have it, like
[7:22] accounting makes you take all these
[7:23] different courses. And I took my first
[7:25] accounting class. I was like, wait a
[7:27] minute, there's something symmetrical
[7:29] and like logical about this. And you
[7:32] know, it wasn't as intimidating or
[7:34] daunting as like doing presentations in
[7:37] front of everyone. you just had to
[7:39] understand business and understand
[7:41] numbers and this methodology of debits
[7:43] and credits. Um so I think the starting
[7:47] point for me was that first accounting
[7:48] course. Then I kind of dug in a little
[7:50] further. Went to the career center. I
[7:52] was trying to get more information about
[7:55] um you know what what these careers look
[7:57] like and really just get more details
[7:59] about like what the nature of an
[8:00] accounting career uh does. And one of
[8:03] the recommendations actually by an
[8:05] adviser, I haven't told this story for
[8:07] so many years. I don't know if I've told
[8:09] this story ever.
[8:11] One of these career adviserss asked me
[8:13] to just like knock on a door um like a
[8:16] CPA or an accountant and go in and ask
[8:19] if they could be interviewed and you
[8:21] know this buggeyed.
[8:24] How old was I? 18 or 19 years old
[8:27] knocking at a CPA's office. I was like,
[8:28] "Hey, um, can I spend like 20 minutes
[8:31] with you just to understand like what
[8:33] you do, what your lifestyle is?" And,
[8:34] you know, sure enough, this was out in
[8:37] Pleasant Hill. I remember um, California
[8:41] with the Bay Area. Uh, someone allowed
[8:44] me to interview him and, you know, I got
[8:46] to learn more about the career, develop
[8:49] stronger interest, you know, from that
[8:51] and and others over time. And you know
[8:53] there there's more than a story but I
[8:55] think that was really what propelled me
[8:56] to to keep going with accounting.
[8:59] >> Well and that's such a trip isn't it?
[9:00] It's just you needed to see it. So many
[9:03] people actually just need to see an
[9:05] example and those who are in the culture
[9:09] they don't get that if you're outside of
[9:10] it it's so foreign. And it was even to
[9:13] me and it's not just a cultural
[9:14] difference like from from our
[9:16] backgrounds. Um it's like a
[9:19] socioeconomic difference of like I had
[9:22] no access to those people and as soon as
[9:24] I saw someone successful that you could
[9:25] talk to about it, it opens up this whole
[9:27] career which is why education is so
[9:30] important, right? Like it does show you
[9:32] these different areas and just beyond
[9:33] education. It seems more like you're
[9:35] saying like apprenticeship or people
[9:38] taking mentees under their wing but also
[9:40] you being proactive to find those
[9:42] mentors.
[9:44] And it's it's very true and it's uh
[9:48] scary too at the same time. So you I've
[9:51] learned how to develop like a more
[9:53] professional lingo over time, but back
[9:55] when I was 18 or 19 coming from the
[9:58] socioeconomic
[9:59] background that I did, I mean I was I
[10:02] was definitely rough around the edges,
[10:03] not only in the way I spoke, but in my
[10:06] appearance as well. And you know, for
[10:08] someone just well, for me to have the
[10:10] courage to go to an office and talk to
[10:12] someone in a suit was definitely um you
[10:16] know, very intimidating. And um but I
[10:20] think that chip on that folder I
[10:21] mentioned earlier is what got me fired
[10:24] up to to actually go and and do that
[10:26] because yeah, you know, you I'm from a a
[10:31] similar background. you don't just go in
[10:32] knock on a door and um you know must up
[10:36] the courage to to strike a conversation
[10:38] with someone that lived a very different
[10:40] life from you. So um yeah, it was it was
[10:44] a lot uh it's easier said than done. Can
[10:48] you mind if I I'm curious too because I
[10:50] heard it from a few people the chip on
[10:51] your shoulder. Was it that that someone
[10:53] told you that you couldn't do it or what
[10:55] was that chip that kind of stuck with
[10:57] you?
[10:59] >> 100%.
[11:01] and you know whether it was explicit in
[11:03] which in some cases it was um or implied
[11:07] just the and I guess you know this is
[11:09] one way for you to know how to like poke
[11:11] me if you ever need to devon tell me I
[11:13] can't do something I'll I'll figure out
[11:16] a way to to get it done um and you know
[11:19] I don't know how I developed that it's
[11:21] probably just the way I'm wired oh
[11:24] similar I'm similar a doctor will tell
[11:26] me hey you're you don't have great knees
[11:28] or your foot's a little longer than the
[11:29] other don't run a marathon I'm like, I'm
[11:30] going to run a marathon. I don't get
[11:33] that.
[11:33] >> Um, yeah, let me prove you wrong.
[11:35] >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Some There's a
[11:36] certain type of person that gets really
[11:38] poked by something like that. So, that's
[11:39] interesting. So, how does that turn into
[11:43] becoming a CEO like going that's a
[11:46] that's a huge there's so many people who
[11:48] become accountants and then start your
[11:50] own company. Did that chip stay on your
[11:52] shoulder? Was that the driving factor or
[11:54] what what changed over the years? Gosh,
[11:56] I mean, I don't think I've also shared
[11:58] this in this with this lens ever as
[12:01] well, but yeah, I've kind of had these
[12:05] internal conversations about myself when
[12:07] I reflect on how I got to where I am.
[12:10] Um, but the chip on the shoulder kind of
[12:13] transformed from, you know, here's this
[12:16] kid from this background and environment
[12:19] that was told you can't, you know, go to
[12:22] uh corporate America and, you know, wear
[12:24] a suit and run the job.
[12:26] Now when I landed in accounting and you
[12:28] know this Devon we're not like the um
[12:32] we're not regarded as we're regarded
[12:34] differently from say sales and other
[12:36] corporate functions right actually
[12:38] within even finance like accounting and
[12:40] FTNA
[12:41] you know there's accounting gives off a
[12:44] different underdog vibe
[12:46] >> and so I kind of carried that on and so
[12:50] you know when you hear and again some
[12:53] sometimes implied sometimes and actually
[12:55] more explicit when you hear other
[12:57] corporate functions say, "Hey, just whip
[12:59] me up a spreadsheet and, you know, go to
[13:01] your fancy VLOOKUP formulas.
[13:04] No need for you to understand strategy."
[13:06] Like, that fired me up, too. So, yeah,
[13:09] I'll skip a few steps, but you know, of
[13:11] course, we I knew uh that part of the
[13:14] blocker for being able to do more
[13:16] strategic work were stupid spreadsheets
[13:18] that everyone was relying on me to
[13:20] produce. Uh so you know that's where I
[13:23] developed the the inspiration to to
[13:26] automate and there's a lot more to that
[13:28] story but I think that's the that's the
[13:30] short word kind of bit.
[13:33] So it sounds like that proving you wrong
[13:35] kind of me mentality stayed throughout
[13:37] it like hey don't under don't
[13:39] underestimate me I can get this done
[13:41] even when you went to accounting and get
[13:43] you got your license then worked at a
[13:45] top firm you still realized that hey
[13:47] we're still the underdogs and you kept
[13:50] that like almost like Rocky if you ever
[13:52] watch the movie Rocky it's almost like
[13:54] that like that momentum right is like
[13:56] hey I'm going to prove the world wrong I
[13:58] can still do this
[14:00] >> that's 100% true and you Unfortunately,
[14:04] I think the accounting industry still
[14:06] has that underground label and until we
[14:10] first like have to embrace and adopt
[14:12] technology and you know, truth be told,
[14:14] we accountants have not been as quick to
[14:17] that um over the years, but I think that
[14:19] that pace thankfully is like picking up
[14:22] now. Um but yeah, I think in short like
[14:26] I think the accounting profession kind
[14:28] of still needs to prove itself that it
[14:32] can contribute more to an organization
[14:34] beyond crunching numbers. And thankfully
[14:37] there's more technologies out there that
[14:39] are helping us, you know, break through
[14:41] that. Yeah, it's something that always
[14:44] triggered it's triggered me and I not a
[14:46] big fan of the word triggered but it
[14:47] triggers me when like even at Google if
[14:50] you were in finance you got a higher pay
[14:52] rate than if you're in accounting and
[14:54] then that's all true in a lot of
[14:55] organizations where accountants get a
[14:56] slightly lower pay rate than other
[14:58] finance functions even though a lot of
[15:00] those finance functions don't have the
[15:01] same certification requirements as a CP
[15:03] as CPA and it's the branding or like
[15:06] like said the underdog mentality of like
[15:08] you guys are just doing the spreadsheets
[15:10] you're just quoting the books like come
[15:12] Like there's so much more than that and
[15:14] it's there's some there's a branding
[15:15] issue with it accounting but I don't
[15:17] want to go down that rabbit hole. I'm
[15:19] really curious on how did you go and
[15:20] start your own like what what was the
[15:23] day was there a day where you're just
[15:24] like screw it I'm going to start my own
[15:25] company.
[15:27] How did that start?
[15:28] >> Yeah. Um so I like to think that I
[15:33] applied very sound logic in getting to
[15:35] that decision. Um and I applied it very
[15:38] similarly actually early in my career.
[15:41] So um I was a KPMG back in 2003 around
[15:45] the time of Anron and
[15:48] I started getting asked by clients audit
[15:51] clients whe people like me should be on
[15:55] the other side and helping you know
[15:56] consult and get people ready for
[15:58] companies ready for socks and so at that
[16:02] particular moment in time I was doing
[16:04] you know I'd sell pros and cons pros um
[16:07] you know there's this unique opportunity
[16:09] that I can you know capitalize on. Uh,
[16:12] two, I can always go back to a big four
[16:14] job if I needed to. Cons, obviously,
[16:17] there's less predictability and income
[16:19] from something so new. And so, I weighed
[16:22] the pros and cons and landed on uh
[16:25] making a really difficult move, like
[16:27] giving up a a really good big Ford job
[16:31] that I worked really hard throughout my
[16:33] childhood to get to start my own
[16:35] practice.
[16:37] And it was kind of the same thing when
[16:38] it was time for me to
[16:41] like have the conviction to to move
[16:43] forward with automating and and
[16:45] software. Um, at that time I was leaving
[16:48] the coach consulting job that I uh and
[16:50] the practice that I went from and the
[16:54] predictability of the income and the
[16:56] really comfort of networking styles back
[16:58] then to doing this like very hardcore
[17:03] Silicon Valley statsbased startup.
[17:07] with a lot of risk and you know of
[17:09] course just like a lot of founders had
[17:11] to take a big pay cut
[17:14] and so but I did the pros and cons I I
[17:17] have spreadsheets prove it
[17:19] >> I believe it just outweigh the cards
[17:22] >> well what what I always admire though is
[17:25] that so many people
[17:27] get into a good job and like you said
[17:30] they you develop the pros and cons like
[17:32] getting into big four is not easy
[17:33] getting your CPA license is not easy not
[17:35] everyone makes it there. Moving up at
[17:37] the big four is not easy. And then they
[17:40] get stuck. They get like their lifestyle
[17:42] creeps up and then they kind of get
[17:43] stuck and they are not willing to take
[17:44] risks. And I see it so many people with
[17:46] my friends, you know, in their 40s,
[17:48] right? Like they're not fulfilled in
[17:50] their career. They want to take a risk,
[17:51] but they're too nervous when in
[17:53] actuality they have the most security
[17:54] they've ever had in their whole life.
[17:56] Like, hey, you have a bunch of money,
[17:58] you have a license, you have a career,
[18:00] you can go, this is the time you can go
[18:02] take risks. Like, what got you through
[18:05] that?
[18:06] the fear because it's not easy. It's not
[18:08] like it's not a decision you're like,
[18:09] "Oh, pros and cons. Okay, there's a few
[18:12] more pros. I'm going for it." It's like
[18:13] there's an identity shift. There's
[18:16] there's a lot there, right?
[18:19] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it
[18:20] definitely does help though that it was
[18:22] still grounded on on some form of logic,
[18:25] which again is like the reason why
[18:27] >> accounting appeals to me so much, right?
[18:29] like there's still some there's some
[18:31] methodology involved in making really
[18:34] big life decisions. Um you know beyond
[18:37] that I think you just have to have like
[18:39] and this is where it becomes like less
[18:42] and more squishy and less painful like I
[18:45] think you have to believe in your
[18:46] capabilities. Um and I know yeah this is
[18:50] not something accounting leaders say but
[18:52] I think it's important um that we
[18:56] develop our own convictions that we can
[18:58] do something that is hard to do uh
[19:01] because otherwise when you account to be
[19:03] skeptical about everything and you know
[19:06] as granted as you are on pros and cons
[19:09] um you know without that passion that
[19:13] and that belief that you could succeed
[19:16] you I needed at to like push me over the
[19:20] edge. And
[19:22] yeah, I think it's it's worked in most
[19:25] moments in my life.
[19:28] >> Yeah. And I I you know, I'm not
[19:30] disparaging the pros and cons list at
[19:32] all. There's definitely that's how I I
[19:34] quit Google and I think everyone thought
[19:35] I was crazy when I quit Google and I was
[19:37] doing quite well over there to go do my
[19:39] own thing and um work with PCG and it
[19:43] came down. I did the same thing, pros
[19:44] and cons. And I was like, "Hey, I think
[19:46] this makes sense logically. I have a
[19:48] logical fungation for." But then you
[19:49] also need the drive, right, of like the
[19:51] passion of, "Hey, I also am excited to
[19:53] do it." This is also something which is
[19:55] a pro, I guess. So, it goes down. I
[19:56] guess the logical formulations, you
[19:58] can't beat them. You always work. Um,
[20:01] what what has that journey been like for
[20:04] you though? Like, from all of the things
[20:06] you've done from consulting to big four
[20:08] accounting to being a CEO, what have you
[20:10] enjoyed the most throughout this
[20:12] journey?
[20:14] Yeah. Um I mean I think just the growth
[20:17] and the learning and I think that comes
[20:19] handinhand with like trying to having
[20:22] that chip on your shoulder, right? Like
[20:23] in order for you to prove that you are
[20:26] more than what people believe in you,
[20:29] you have to accomplish things, right?
[20:33] And for yourself or for
[20:35] accomplishments that are visible to
[20:37] others. And I definitely take a lot of
[20:39] pride in what we built in Gapify kind of
[20:42] uh developing the software and getting
[20:44] out to market the first to market type
[20:47] product in in across management building
[20:50] the team going through um you know VC
[20:53] fundraises several rounds successfully
[20:55] which is uh not something that's easy to
[20:58] do and for us to actually still exist at
[21:00] this point and and growing um you know I
[21:04] know statistically it's it's um
[21:07] uncommon. So I think taking stock of
[21:10] those accomplishments, it definitely
[21:12] makes this worth it. And just like to
[21:14] watch myself kind of grow and learn new
[21:18] things beyond accounting, right? Running
[21:20] a company, partnering with different
[21:23] functions who have very different
[21:25] mentalities in in life. Um you know,
[21:29] getting to meet people like you. It's
[21:30] kind of just like opened up the world to
[21:32] me in ways that I don't think I I I even
[21:35] imagined um when I first developed that
[21:39] chip in my shoulder back in high school.
[21:41] Uh I think it's you know thanks to
[21:43] accounting it's it's kind of made me a a
[21:48] more complete professional and person
[21:50] and you know I know you and I spoke as I
[21:53] was coming in I'm also going through a
[21:55] transition in life right now um where I
[21:58] am stepping away from um running gapify
[22:02] and you know obviously not least as I
[22:05] mentioned kind of prompted by by health
[22:07] reasons um but you I I think just like
[22:12] the decisions I made in life I shared
[22:15] with you the pros and cons like there's
[22:17] you definitely some kind of logic
[22:20] grounded approach in making these very
[22:22] tight uh tough types of calls but I
[22:25] think in terms of like the passion that
[22:27] I talked about thereafter you just being
[22:29] able to figure out what's next in life
[22:32] and what I want to experience
[22:35] I have a feeling it's probably outside
[22:37] of accounting once I you know go through
[22:39] my my recovery process But, you know,
[22:41] it's an opportunity to continue to to
[22:44] grow and stretch and expand myself in,
[22:47] yeah, ways I'm not quite sure yet, then.
[22:49] And so, yeah, you're getting this hot
[22:51] off the press. Um, but I'm just like
[22:53] thankful I'm in a position where, you
[22:56] know, I can I can make these decisions.
[22:58] I have, you know, options and
[23:00] opportunities that that I can explore.
[23:04] >> Yeah. And I I know there's this strange
[23:05] instinct where I want to say like, "Hey,
[23:07] I'm sorry to hear that's all one, but
[23:09] it's not. It sounds like there's an it's
[23:11] an adventure. It's like your next
[23:12] journey that you're going to go on and
[23:13] it sounds like it's well thought knowing
[23:15] your pros and cons. It's well thought
[23:17] through that is the right decisions for
[23:18] you. So, I'm excited to see what that
[23:21] next step um of that journey is. I would
[23:23] would you mind sharing with everyone
[23:24] kind of like it sounds like there's so
[23:27] many ups of the business side but I
[23:30] haven't talked to enough CEOs on this
[23:31] like I know there's the challenges too
[23:33] and so how like could you share some of
[23:36] the big highs and lows of what being a
[23:38] CEO leadership has been like if you
[23:40] don't mind with everybody. Oh
[23:42] >> yeah,
[23:43] >> absolutely. I mean, the biggest highs is
[23:46] definitely partnering with, you know,
[23:50] people within your team and your
[23:51] customers to just achieve things, right?
[23:53] In the same way that I was laser focused
[23:56] on accomplishing so many things
[23:58] throughout my career, when you can ban a
[24:00] group of people from diverse backgrounds
[24:02] and experiences
[24:04] and do something, and I know it sounds
[24:06] cheesy, implement an approval management
[24:08] software so someone doesn't have to work
[24:10] a weekend anymore. Yeah, obviously
[24:11] there's a lot of things in between
[24:13] implementing a software.
[24:18] Yeah, just just working together um and
[24:21] and supporting people at the end of the
[24:23] day to do something great. Um yeah,
[24:28] again I know more on the squishy side,
[24:29] not non numeric side. Um but yeah,
[24:33] that's definitely something I've always
[24:36] taken stock of and am never
[24:39] underappreciated.
[24:41] Well, you created something. It's easy.
[24:42] Like there's I'll sorry to cut you off,
[24:44] but I one of my favorite quotes of all
[24:46] time is like there's no such thing as
[24:48] original thought, only original action.
[24:51] And it is something to bring a whole
[24:53] group of people together around a
[24:56] thought that's probably not that
[24:57] original. Like everyone wants to
[24:58] automate the Rick rules, but to get
[25:00] everyone and to create that, there's
[25:02] something amazing. You put something out
[25:03] into the world that didn't exist before.
[25:05] And accounting is a bit like that.
[25:06] you're like what bringing order to chaos
[25:08] in a lot of ways but then to to create
[25:11] something out of all of that is quite an
[25:13] accomplishment and not like most people
[25:15] don't do that and yeah that's so it
[25:17] sounds like that act of creation
[25:19] co-creation with other people was just
[25:21] huge for you right
[25:23] >> and to see it come to life steon and
[25:25] then to know that you know several years
[25:28] later customers are still enjoying the
[25:31] benefits of of that effort whether it's
[25:33] the product the implementation and so on
[25:35] I mean It's It's just special. But I was
[25:38] going to say um earlier that the kicker,
[25:42] the bonus, the icing on the cake. Oh
[25:45] man. And I could get choked up actually
[25:46] saying this. I'll try to say this in a
[25:48] plain way. As you're make as you're
[25:52] partnering and um knocking down those
[25:54] accomplishments for you to see people
[25:57] around you, they'll grow their own
[25:59] skills.
[26:00] That was just another level. Like I
[26:02] remember starting with some of the
[26:03] leaders here at Gapify
[26:05] raw in different areas, but then they've
[26:08] not only learned new skills that have
[26:10] made them more effective professionals,
[26:12] but kind of goes back to them believing
[26:14] in themselves. And Devin, I think you
[26:16] and I were at um Giants game a few
[26:19] months ago. I ought to watch someone,
[26:23] you know, really be themselves. And I I
[26:25] won't give any details because I don't
[26:27] want to give this person away. Um, but I
[26:29] just witnessed real time her develop
[26:32] into a more
[26:34] effective and polished and amazing
[26:37] professional and I saw it happen live
[26:39] and those are the moments that choke me
[26:40] up, Devon.
[26:42] But yeah, it's like it's akin to being a
[26:43] father or older brother or however you
[26:46] want to however you want to see it, but
[26:47] there is this growth
[26:49] >> element and the it's a testament to you.
[26:52] And I don't like I'm not trying to just
[26:54] pass around praise, but the best thing a
[26:56] leader can do is build up other leaders.
[26:59] And for you to do that, like not
[27:01] everyone does that. There's a lot of
[27:02] toxic leaders out there that'll throw
[27:04] other people under the bus. for you to
[27:05] do that and recognize that and for to
[27:06] mean something shows what a standup
[27:08] person you are, what an impact you've
[27:10] left despite whatever you do next.
[27:13] >> Well, and yeah, selfishly not to defer,
[27:16] you know, but you know, I know going
[27:19] into it and I knew running Gapify as
[27:23] long as I did from the beginning that
[27:26] that I wanted that experience, right?
[27:28] So, you know, there there's definitely
[27:30] something innately rewarding for me as
[27:32] well. and and being able to do that and
[27:36] you know this is where you know my my
[27:38] overgratefulness sometimes kicks in like
[27:40] thankful for the opportunity to be put
[27:42] in position
[27:45] to help people believe in themselves. Um
[27:48] but you know I know the second part to
[27:50] your question was you know what are the
[27:52] the downsides of of running a business
[27:55] and you know of course like not every
[27:57] story is a success stories and you know
[28:01] we had to move on from people that
[28:05] um were underperforming and in some
[28:08] cases customers have moved on from us
[28:10] for you know is issues or mistakes that
[28:12] we've done and have learned from. So,
[28:15] you know, it definitely goes both ways.
[28:18] And I think you kind of in the, you
[28:22] know, standard accounting mindset and
[28:24] practical mindset that I have, like
[28:26] that's how life works, right? Like,
[28:28] you're going to have the great and
[28:30] you're going to have the not so great.
[28:32] And you try to appreciate and first of
[28:35] all, learn from the not great and yeah,
[28:37] not make those types of mistakes again.
[28:39] Uh but when the good times come like
[28:41] just got to like touch it, grab it,
[28:44] enjoy it, feel it. Um and I'm being
[28:47] reflective in
[28:50] now because of you know this this shift
[28:53] and and in my my career but you know no
[28:57] better time to do a podcast, right?
[29:00] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. No, and I I appreciate
[29:02] you being transparent and sharing like
[29:04] sharing some of these things you've
[29:05] learned because and maybe hopefully I
[29:08] hope it's something that you could look
[29:09] back on in the future and kind of
[29:10] reflect, you know, in 10 years and be
[29:12] like, "Hey, I did this podcast and where
[29:13] was I at at this pivotal moment?" So, um
[29:16] hopefully it's a cool like little
[29:17] treasure, you know, or archive. But what
[29:24] what if you don't want what was the big
[29:26] what's the big change or like what
[29:28] why why the change or like what's what's
[29:31] going on?
[29:33] >> Yeah. Well, I don't mind you know
[29:34] sharing some context although I won't
[29:36] get into the full extent.
[29:37] >> Yeah. I'll only share what you're
[29:38] comfortable with issues.
[29:39] >> Yeah.
[29:39] >> Um yeah, I think yeah I would think my
[29:43] doctor assumes it properly. Just bad
[29:45] genes, bad luck. Um, you know,
[29:47] thankfully nothing along the lines of of
[29:50] life-threatening, but yeah, something
[29:51] that requires immediate attention. Um,
[29:54] and thankfully I've got the chance to
[29:57] course correct in in major areas. Um,
[30:00] but you know what? Like because of that
[30:02] chip in my shoulder I mentioned to you,
[30:05] I've disregarded neglected my health for
[30:08] so many years. So I'm surprised that my
[30:10] body held up as long as it it did. And I
[30:13] know you you and I have seen accounting
[30:15] professionals. We're like so tunnel
[30:18] vision and probably you know for folks
[30:20] like you and me that come from the
[30:22] backgrounds that we did. Um I think it's
[30:24] just very easy for for us to to lose
[30:28] track of how important health is. Um, so
[30:31] you I'm going to really appreciate just
[30:33] the opportunity and I'm thankful for
[30:36] this the ability to to go crazy on like
[30:40] recovery and like be very strategic and
[30:43] just like put a lot of time and effort
[30:44] into it.
[30:47] And at the same time, I still get to do
[30:49] some advisory and consulting in the
[30:51] industry. So I'm not going to be fully
[30:53] plugged away from Gapify and and the
[30:56] accounting space, too. So, I'm I'm very
[30:58] fortunate that, you know, this change
[31:00] comes with like some optimality.
[31:03] >> Yeah. No, I'm glad you're taking care of
[31:05] your health and I think it's just an
[31:06] important thing. I I appreciate you
[31:07] sharing it because there's, you know,
[31:10] there's two types of people I've seen. I
[31:12] I I kind of hate saying that, but
[31:14] there's the types of people who watch
[31:15] these kind of things and then they're
[31:17] aspirational where it's like, hey, how
[31:19] do I do that? And they're kind of
[31:20] younger and they're excited. But there's
[31:22] also the type of people that I'd say
[31:24] kind of cut from our cloth or those
[31:26] people might become where they're so
[31:28] hooked on performing and being
[31:31] conscientious and having the chip on
[31:32] their shoulder. I've been there and you
[31:34] meet these people, they wind up being,
[31:35] you know, the partners at big four, big
[31:37] four. They wind up being the CEOs of
[31:39] companies and health really takes a
[31:41] backseat. It's really tough to run a
[31:43] company or to be a top performer and
[31:45] also take care of your romantic life,
[31:47] your friendships, your health. And it's
[31:50] not sustainable for a lot of people,
[31:52] especially with how we've made
[31:53] technology nowadays where like I was at
[31:55] Google, there was times I'd take 3:00
[31:57] a.m. phone calls and midnight phone
[31:58] calls and I'd sleep for 2 hours and get
[32:01] pings in between during quarter end and
[32:03] like and then I'd wonder I'd go to the
[32:05] doctor be like, "Why am I having why am
[32:06] I having trouble sleeping?" you know,
[32:08] and and they'd be like, "Well, you're
[32:10] you're working 20 hours a day. How are
[32:12] you supposed to sleep?" And like, "Where
[32:13] are you supposed to sleep?" And I'm
[32:14] like, "Yeah, but I need to work." So,
[32:16] there's that dark side that really does
[32:18] exist. And maybe I don't know. I'm
[32:20] always challenging or trying to reflect
[32:22] on like how can we create a more
[32:24] sustainable
[32:26] life for our leaders, right? So, that
[32:28] they don't like they don't have to and
[32:29] and maybe and it's not always just the
[32:31] work environment. A lot of times like
[32:32] genetics, I have my off genetics.
[32:34] Everyone has things they have to take
[32:35] care of, but how do you build a space to
[32:36] take care of those things
[32:39] >> 100%. And you know, I know this opens up
[32:41] a whole another topic or can of worms uh
[32:45] depending on how you look at it. But in
[32:47] answering that question of like, you
[32:48] know, how do we create a better path for
[32:50] for leaders to do all the amazing things
[32:53] that we want to do, but you allow
[32:55] ourselves to take care of ourselves? And
[32:57] I really do 100% believe that AI is part
[33:00] of that answer. And in fact, I would say
[33:04] that, you know, and you know, I know
[33:06] kind of I'm transitioning out now, but
[33:08] in the last several quarters,
[33:11] um the intensity is always going to be
[33:14] there, but in terms of like how much I
[33:15] can get done is I I think, you know,
[33:20] definitely um helping against like the
[33:22] need to work 20our days um and you know,
[33:27] maybe it's like 18 or
[33:29] I think it's at least trending in the
[33:31] right direction and I think that as it
[33:32] further advances, I think that's got a
[33:35] good chance of of making things more
[33:36] reasonable.
[33:38] >> Yeah, as long as we use it, right? As
[33:40] long as we don't just become super
[33:41] hyperductive. Like now we're all doing
[33:43] 10x and going crazy. But hopefully
[33:45] people I I've known it's improved my
[33:47] life. I all testament to it like that
[33:50] being able to polish and draft emails or
[33:52] automate certain aspects of my has cut
[33:54] down drastically on some of my hours and
[33:56] I get to focus on more high value work.
[33:58] So what
[34:01] what's next for you? Like what's what's
[34:03] the hyper recovery plan look like? Have
[34:05] you already thought it through or what
[34:06] what's this next piece then?
[34:09] >> Well, you mentioned AI, right? And I
[34:11] have um no issues um being open about
[34:15] this. AI it sounds like you know similar
[34:18] with you.
[34:20] I I use it for the highest impact parts
[34:24] of my life and these obviously health is
[34:26] number one. So I'm not going to go to
[34:28] ChachiBT and ask for like a diagnosis
[34:31] based on you know how I feel. So that
[34:33] would just be uh negligent but
[34:38] you know my condition without going into
[34:39] details. There's like so many different
[34:41] things going on. And so for like AI to
[34:44] kind of just collate all of that, all
[34:46] the different tests and results that
[34:48] I've um accumulated uh from this
[34:51] process, uh leveraging AI to be
[34:54] strategic about the recovery process to
[34:56] support it to support with that, direct
[35:00] me when I need to, you know, flag a
[35:01] doctor because certain pain levels and
[35:03] breach a certain threshold. um you know
[35:06] as I guess to answer your question as
[35:08] far as what's next it's like leveraging
[35:11] AI to get myself organized to to
[35:15] um take on this multiaceted like health
[35:19] recovery
[35:20] um and you know I think the more I can
[35:22] just focus on that and you know
[35:25] thankfully we've got strong leaders at
[35:26] Gapify uh that will run the business
[35:29] it'll operate as normal in fact uh you
[35:32] know the growth trajectory is still the
[35:34] that we're targeting there for me to
[35:36] just like focus on that have the tools
[35:39] now to uh to be more effective at it. Um
[35:44] you know, of course, like I can't treat
[35:46] my Hulk like a game, but there's a part
[35:47] of this that is like pretty exciting
[35:50] challenge for me too. Yeah, you're
[35:52] gifying and AI can do that really well.
[35:54] How are you using it? Like what are you
[35:56] are you just using a variety of chat
[35:58] bots and kind of are you doing something
[36:00] more advanced or building your own tools
[36:02] around this? about how do how does
[36:04] Joseum optimize AI so I could learn or
[36:06] maybe the viewers could learn what we
[36:08] could be doing differently.
[36:10] >> Yeah, I'm a chat GPT guy.
[36:13] >> Okay, that's changed over time and I I
[36:15] evolved from like GPT then to Claude and
[36:19] then Gemini and then I'm back um Chach
[36:23] creating custom GPTs. Um, I think one
[36:27] thing that is interesting to me and I
[36:30] haven't fully adapted this yet, although
[36:31] I need kind of my doctors to play along
[36:33] with it, uh, you just giving them access
[36:36] to my custom GPTs and like for a
[36:39] dialogue to happen through my my agent
[36:42] so to speak. um you know I don't know
[36:45] it's within their
[36:47] rules or where they can kind of um you
[36:50] know get updates from me or you know for
[36:53] me to ask updates of them but you know
[36:54] there's a way in which yeah I can sit in
[36:57] the middle um you know whether it's
[36:59] interpreting
[37:01] communicating you know that I'm still
[37:03] all trying to flesh out but I've kind of
[37:06] done the foundational work I've set up
[37:07] that custom GPT got I've loaded in all
[37:10] my yeah visit summary
[37:13] like X-rays, MRIs, and so on. Um, you
[37:17] know, it's definitely helping me get it
[37:18] organized already, but I think there's
[37:20] like a level of collaboration that can
[37:22] be activated now that that baseline is
[37:24] is in place.
[37:26] >> Yeah, I'm so excited about that stuff.
[37:28] Like, that's where it seems like it sits
[37:30] too in my perspective, not just with
[37:32] health, but just something I was trying
[37:33] to play with or build a tool around was
[37:35] I'm trying to get in better shape. And
[37:37] so, like calorie counting is really
[37:39] annoying. If you ever done calorie
[37:40] counting, like you have to like and
[37:42] normally right now you have to like find
[37:43] an app and enter in a table and find the
[37:46] food and take a picture and be like,
[37:48] "Man, it'd be so cool if you could talk
[37:49] to your phone
[37:50] >> and track your calories." You could do
[37:52] it with chatbt, but that it doesn't go
[37:53] into a table. And it's like, well, if
[37:55] you had it, it could become kind of like
[37:56] a coach or like a feedback mechanism to
[38:00] a coach if you like were able to talk to
[38:01] it, attract it all on a table, and then
[38:03] it gave you feedback. And that's kind of
[38:05] where like AI native is going. AI native
[38:07] products are going is you have this
[38:09] great intermediary where you then can
[38:11] get an expert summary and then you have
[38:13] your experts apply judgment to it.
[38:15] Right. It sounds like that's kind of
[38:16] what you're building. That can be a
[38:18] whole business on the health side. So
[38:19] just be careful not starting a whole new
[38:21] business, you know, on this.
[38:23] >> Well, yeah. You probably know me enough
[38:26] now to to know that I can't help but
[38:28] sometimes think that way, right? Um but
[38:31] you touched on something that I think is
[38:32] also gets overlooked or maybe typically
[38:35] seen as more of a negative than a
[38:37] positive. Um and it's the the
[38:40] encouragement
[38:42] actually like chat sheet PT can can
[38:44] provide you in my case as I'm updating
[38:47] it on you different pain levels and like
[38:50] successful completion of like some kind
[38:52] of PT session just to say hey you're on
[38:55] the right track like keep going that
[38:58] that cheerleading part I I appreciate
[39:01] and maybe you know not everyone um it
[39:05] resonates with everyone in that same way
[39:06] but you know when you're dealing with
[39:08] something complex, right? It's good. And
[39:11] I'm still human to to get some level of
[39:14] encouragement from from these tools, you
[39:16] know, in addition to all the other
[39:18] amazing things that that he can do.
[39:20] >> Yeah. And that's a great thing for
[39:22] everyone to take away. I've seen it on a
[39:23] lot of like on podcasts I'll listen to
[39:25] is actually people are recommending,
[39:28] hey, if you don't have a good friend
[39:29] group, talk to chat GPT because it at
[39:31] least will encourage you to do good
[39:33] things. And it's something that's kind
[39:35] of it's sad that it's sad. It's exciting
[39:38] there's a tool there, but it's also a
[39:40] little sad to recognize there's a need
[39:41] there where people don't we're not being
[39:43] good enough friends to each other where
[39:45] someone can send you a text and be like
[39:47] you have a friend who's going to be
[39:48] like, "Hey, great job. Let like keep
[39:50] going." There's most people don't have
[39:52] that person anymore. I don't know what
[39:53] it's technology or communities or
[39:55] whatever it is, but chat GBT does fill
[39:58] the hole. Um, but it's also a challenge
[39:59] to everyone else is like how can we all
[40:02] be more encouraging to others just like
[40:04] you said with tying up tying it going
[40:06] full circle with your growing your
[40:08] business. The best part of your business
[40:09] was the encouragement you provided to
[40:11] others as they and seeing them grow and
[40:13] evolve over time like how can we how can
[40:17] we learn from chat GPT I guess on on
[40:19] that element right because it's
[40:20] something missing from humanity right
[40:22] now
[40:23] >> 100% and yeah this is a whole another
[40:26] episode on its episode but um yeah I
[40:29] think when used properly and it's
[40:32] capable today of doing so I I believe at
[40:35] least uh check BT can help you come more
[40:39] human. Um, and you know, it's not
[40:42] necessarily just like a reference or
[40:45] something that answers questions, but
[40:47] you know, in my case, and it kind of
[40:50] ties into the the founder persona and
[40:52] story and Devon, it's
[40:55] you maybe this is the way I operate and
[40:57] unique to me, but being a CEO and
[41:00] founder, you're looked at as obviously
[41:02] the spokesperson of the company. to have
[41:05] it together. I have to show poise and
[41:09] you know not be rattled so easily
[41:11] despite you some of these things that
[41:13] are happening in my life. CHBT allows me
[41:15] to be here like,
[41:18] you know, updated on concerns I have
[41:20] about the split tear I have on my bicep
[41:23] and you know without being thug right
[41:26] there's just so many examples where you
[41:29] know it's it's helped in my life and
[41:32] yeah I think people's first reaction or
[41:35] maybe assumption is that you know I'm
[41:37] going to check GBT to diagnose myself or
[41:40] find cures for for my stuff but I can do
[41:43] so much more beyond that yeah it really
[41:45] can't it's going to be it's going to be
[41:47] completely game changing and I like what
[41:48] you said that the AI can help us be more
[41:51] human and to that element like I hope
[41:53] you know you know I know we've talked
[41:55] long enough now I've talked to this is
[41:57] the way we have communication now right
[41:59] like but we're so busy that you have to
[42:01] do a podcast or something but if you
[42:02] ever wanted some human encouragement you
[42:04] could always text me or anything and I'm
[42:06] more than happy to hear everything going
[42:07] on and that's something that everyone
[42:09] like hey maybe we take a playbook out of
[42:12] how these tools are interacting with us
[42:14] and learn how to be better friends and
[42:16] better colleagues to each other and it
[42:19] gets silly. Yeah, I I forget I was
[42:20] talking to another CEO on a hike the
[42:22] other day and it's it kind of goes back
[42:25] to everything we understand spiritually.
[42:27] Like there's a spiritual element to
[42:28] life, business and spirituality and all
[42:30] this spiritual element of like what is
[42:32] kind of all the great do all the great
[42:34] teachers teach and then like well you
[42:35] seek truth and you love each other and
[42:38] you take care of each other and if you
[42:40] ground on that
[42:42] everything else falls in place and chat
[42:46] TV does a good job of loving in a in a
[42:48] strange way. It's like gives that kind
[42:50] of loving and it also seeks truth. So in
[42:52] an element it's giving us this it's
[42:55] letting people reexplore the spiritual
[42:57] element of their life where they can go
[43:00] go and try to explore this stuff.
[43:01] Honestly it's very very strange but very
[43:04] powerful and maybe it's like maybe it's
[43:06] the next 80s or 70s revolution where
[43:08] people start getting more in touch with
[43:10] each other because of this tool. But
[43:13] yeah, Devin, I mean, I'm shaking my head
[43:16] here because it's clear that you and I
[43:18] like had a lot of similarities and yeah,
[43:21] I definitely believe that. Um, and you
[43:25] know, I think in my decision making to,
[43:28] and gosh, I mean, I'm trying to figure
[43:30] out how to like condense this, so I'm
[43:31] not going too far off the the ledge
[43:34] here, but you mentioned like catchy PT
[43:37] can help us like love and you appreciate
[43:40] each other as as humans, but it also can
[43:43] help you define, create, reinforce your
[43:46] meaning, right? And so I had to go
[43:47] through that identity moment and meaning
[43:49] moment with this decision in in my life.
[43:52] And no doubt like KGBT I didn't ask it
[43:55] to write my meaning of life. I
[43:57] collaborated with it like these are the
[43:59] principles and values that are important
[44:01] to me. It's kind of helped me take this
[44:04] decision from a top down perspective.
[44:06] Um, and yeah, I know that you and I are
[44:09] probably more on the the AI sandboy
[44:12] side, but I'm I mean I I joke about it,
[44:14] but I think there is just like
[44:16] incredible power um that people can
[44:21] think use today's form of AI and I think
[44:23] we're too sometimes like nitpicky about
[44:26] and focused on hallucinations and trying
[44:29] to point it out and like excusing the
[44:31] technology alto together. But I mean,
[44:33] yeah, I'm making it very clear for me.
[44:35] It's made a a huge impact in my life and
[44:37] yeah, I'm grateful to you live in a
[44:39] times where this technology is
[44:40] available.
[44:42] >> Yeah, definitely. Would you mind sharing
[44:43] and you don't have to. I was just
[44:44] curious what is did you did you craft
[44:46] like a meaning of life for yourself or
[44:48] like what are your core values or
[44:50] something with it? I did something
[44:51] similar. So, I'd just be curious if
[44:53] you're comfortable sharing that.
[44:55] >> Yeah. Well, one thing that's great about
[44:58] AI again is you can just throw a lot of
[45:00] stuff in there, right? You don't have to
[45:01] organize your thoughts. I you know I
[45:03] went from describing the core values I
[45:06] had growing up to where I am in life um
[45:10] like my goals throughout different
[45:11] points of my life
[45:14] and you know of course it started
[45:15] developing kind of like the trajectory
[45:17] of what it thinks is important to me and
[45:21] you know through several rounds of
[45:23] iteration and never like a oneshot thing
[45:25] right like you interact you collaborate
[45:28] you refine you correct um but when you
[45:31] know how to do that with the AI you get
[45:33] something that is you know definitely
[45:34] more you than than them right uh so yeah
[45:39] in my case and you know I think this is
[45:42] a good thing to share too that I haven't
[45:44] like shared with anyone including my my
[45:46] family uh maybe I'm ringing this phase
[45:48] in my life then where experiences matter
[45:51] for me and accomplishments and I think
[45:55] it's time for me to maybe not have that
[45:58] chip on my shoulder and just kind of
[46:00] like appreciate what's what's happening
[46:01] in including my health by the way and
[46:03] not taking it for granted.
[46:05] um you know there's a lot more in one's
[46:09] core values and and mission statement
[46:12] but you know that is one of the key
[46:14] things that chat GPT helped me I don't
[46:18] get to as a conclusion of where I want
[46:20] to be in life which is entering this
[46:22] phase where experiences and you know
[46:26] being present um might be more critical
[46:29] for me especially for my health than
[46:31] than achieving the next big
[46:34] wow Oh man, it's amazing, right? It's
[46:36] amazing that it was it's such a great
[46:37] self-reflection tool and I've done it
[46:39] for similar and I've met other people
[46:40] who are using it for similar ways and
[46:42] yeah, it's I mean it's just going to be
[46:45] amazing to get more self-aware humans
[46:47] who are going to have more of an impact
[46:49] that matters like focusing on the things
[46:52] that matter to plug my show ambition
[46:54] align to align their ambitions right
[46:55] with their actual core values and
[46:57] everything. Okay, I we're running close.
[46:59] You're a busy guy and I want you to I
[47:01] want to make sure we close strong. I
[47:02] have a few questions I ask everyone just
[47:04] for fun. Um, and then we'll close it
[47:07] out. But I appreciate you being on, Joe.
[47:09] So, first question,
[47:11] sweets or savory?
[47:14] >> Savory.
[47:15] >> Okay.
[47:17] What's your favorite sweet?
[47:20] >> Um, chocolate cream.
[47:22] >> Oh, okay. I love And I don't get a lot
[47:24] of cream pie people, but like a banana
[47:26] cream or chocolate cream pie is just so
[47:28] good. What's your least favorite piece
[47:30] of advice that everyone dishes out?
[47:37] Oh, that's a tough one. Um, I mean, I
[47:39] think about the AI one specifically and
[47:42] just the over reliance on hallucination
[47:46] and accuracy, which we know is not like
[47:48] feasible with anything or any human. Um,
[47:51] and so I would advise people to like not
[47:55] be thwarted by that. um and to allow
[47:58] themselves to to discover this this
[48:01] powerful new technology still.
[48:04] >> Yeah, I that's that's great. People do
[48:06] people are scared of hallucinations, but
[48:07] forget that people are full of crap,
[48:09] too. So, you know, we I found that it's
[48:13] hallucinate less than my friends lie,
[48:15] right? So, that's like a big um
[48:19] last one. What's one piece of advice
[48:21] from everything we talked about today
[48:23] that uh that you wish you said that you
[48:25] didn't?
[48:27] One piece of advice that I gave during
[48:30] this episode that I wish I didn't.
[48:33] >> No, no, let me rephrase that. From
[48:36] everything in this episode, is there a
[48:37] piece of advice that you missed that you
[48:38] wish you said?
[48:41] >> Um, I got this advice and you know, this
[48:44] is like one of the the perks of being
[48:46] able to do Gapify for as long as I did.
[48:49] I got a chance to speak to Morgan
[48:52] Stanley's ex CEO, James Gorman, and be
[48:56] yourself. I mean, as simple as that is,
[48:59] like it's it's allowed me to be the
[49:02] genuine person that I am, that I think
[49:03] has helped me make the right decisions
[49:06] for myself and also I think get the
[49:09] levels of collaboration that I've been
[49:11] able to
[49:13] been lucky to to have, whether it's
[49:15] customers, people on my team, and so on.
[49:18] So, be yourself. I know it's cliche, but
[49:21] I stand behind that 100%.
[49:23] >> Yeah. Well, I'm I'm with you that the
[49:25] hardest thing to do nowadays is to be
[49:29] authentic. There's so many ways that
[49:31] social media or technology or the
[49:33] expectations of others make us wear
[49:35] masks. And it sounds like you and I have
[49:37] found that AI can help you take away the
[49:40] mask and help you rediscover who you
[49:42] really are. And you're going on this
[49:44] journey with your health now. and I'm
[49:45] wishing you the best and hoping we stay
[49:47] closely in touch and reach out anytime.
[49:49] I'm I'm supporting and encouraging you
[49:50] through that and it's a testament to you
[49:53] as a leader that you were able to build
[49:55] a place that you can leave and will
[49:57] still grow and that's what the best
[49:59] leaders in the world do and you did it
[50:01] and not and most people can't do it. So
[50:03] hats off to you can learn from you and I
[50:05] I really appreciate you taking the time
[50:07] today my friend.
[50:08] >> It means a lot. Thanks for having me on.
[50:10] And of course,