YouTube transcript
Video ID: jog8bkuDVkw
Language: en
Captions: auto-generated

[0:00] But what happens with internal leaders
[0:03] is you're here, you already know the
[0:04] products or the services and the people
[0:07] and when you're congratulations
[0:09] promoted, you get even less than people
[0:12] coming in from the outside because we
[0:13] take for granted like you should be able
[0:15] to hit the ground running. I'm going to
[0:16] intentionally do some bad grammar here
[0:18] which is you know meetings. How many of
[0:20] you are in like so many meetings now and
[0:22] it feels like a waste of your time,
[0:24] right? But meetings is work at the next
[0:27] level. We tend to promote the best
[0:28] widget maker to become the new widget
[0:30] maker leader, which isn't actually
[0:32] always a proxy for leadership potential.
[0:36] No one's paid to take a bullet for
[0:37] someone they don't like other than the
[0:39] Secret Service, right? So, you know,
[0:41] when you're in a room and you're needing
[0:42] influence, if you've never even had
[0:45] coffee with this person before or lunch
[0:48] or just simply had a 30 minute chat in
[0:52] their office, like your hill to climb to
[0:55] influence is so much higher. Hey
[0:57] everybody, I'm Devin Kums. I'm a CPA,
[1:00] MBA, and I work at Google Cloud where I
[1:02] lead multi-billion dollar deal
[1:04] negotiations as a financial expert. But
[1:07] for fun, I also do this podcast,
[1:09] Ambition Aligned, where I try to find
[1:10] purpose-driven professionals making real
[1:13] impact with what they're doing in their
[1:14] lives. Please watch, please subscribe,
[1:17] and I think we're going to get a ton out
[1:18] of today's episode. How did you go into
[1:21] this interesting profession of helping
[1:23] new leaders in new roles?
[1:26] Yeah, great, great question, and thanks
[1:28] for having me. Um so oddly I had started
[1:31] my career in external consulting and so
[1:34] I'm currently in what I affectionately
[1:38] call the third chapter of my career. So
[1:40] I spent the first chapter of my career
[1:41] almost 10 years with um a small small
[1:44] but global company called PDI Personnel
[1:47] Decisions International. They were
[1:48] eventually bought by a company called
[1:50] Cornfairy that a lot of people are
[1:52] familiar with. So I spent almost the
[1:54] first 10 years of my career I like to
[1:56] say sort of dissecting leadership
[1:58] behavior. I was doing assessments for
[2:01] both selection and development deep day
[2:04] in the life simulation based assessments
[2:07] where we would be playing roles
[2:08] assessing behaviors
[2:10] um and across multiple leadership
[2:13] levels. and our clients would use those
[2:15] to help make certain hiring decisions or
[2:18] promotion decisions or we would dovetail
[2:21] those into coaching if it was for
[2:22] development. Also did some workshop uh
[2:25] facilitation, high potential succession
[2:27] consulting when I was there. Did that
[2:29] for almost 10 years before I had so much
[2:31] more of my career in front of me than
[2:33] behind me and decided to go turn to the
[2:35] dark side and go into HR u and spent the
[2:38] next 10 years um in a few different HR
[2:41] shops here locally. I'm in St. Paul,
[2:44] Minnesota. So, I spent a couple of years
[2:45] with Buffalo Wild Wings uh before they
[2:48] were sold to a private equity firm out
[2:50] of Atlanta. Spent almost 5 years with
[2:52] Cargill doing talent management uh and
[2:55] DNI there. And then um spent a couple
[2:58] years with uh General Mills doing both
[3:01] uh talent management and a little bit of
[3:04] uh DNI in my spare time when I was there
[3:07] as well. And I took the leap to go
[3:10] external and on my own in July of 2024
[3:14] and haven't really looked back since.
[3:17] And I have this found this sort of
[3:20] passion area if you will for leaders who
[3:23] have been newly promoted. In my
[3:26] experience in HR in particular, you
[3:28] know, we would always talk about how
[3:29] much at every company, right? Every
[3:31] company terminally unique. Everybody
[3:33] thought they had this unique problem of
[3:35] we really struggle to bring leaders in
[3:38] from the outside and truly onboard them
[3:40] in the organization. And one thing that
[3:42] I noticed over the years was well while
[3:45] that's true and every company probably
[3:46] would agree to you know we could we
[3:49] could spend more money on boarding
[3:51] leaders when they come
[3:53] in. We also spend only a fraction of
[3:56] what we're spending if anything on
[3:58] onboarding internal leaders when we
[4:00] promote them from one level to the next.
[4:03] And I would say a big backbone of my
[4:06] experience with PDI and cornfairy in the
[4:09] chapter one of my
[4:10] career was right each each level is
[4:13] truly unique and distinct as you kind of
[4:16] grow in your career and the work is
[4:20] different and changes
[4:23] and the need to be sort of intentional
[4:26] to leave the old world or the old work
[4:30] and even maybe old identity behind.
[4:32] and step into the new level, the new
[4:34] work, the new identity.
[4:37] Um is of critical importance. It's easy
[4:42] to neglect. Um and it it it takes time
[4:47] and if not attended to intentionally, it
[4:49] takes a lot of time. Um but what happens
[4:52] with internal leaders right is is you're
[4:55] here you already know the products or
[4:57] the services and the people and when
[4:59] you're congratulations promoted you get
[5:03] even less than people coming in from the
[5:04] outside because we take for granted like
[5:06] you should be able to hit the ground
[5:07] running. You know all the
[5:09] people and we spend comparatively less
[5:13] time truly helping them understand
[5:15] what's now expected at this level. How
[5:17] should you behave at this level? And so
[5:19] you find a lot of leaders at every level
[5:21] kind of white knuckling it through in
[5:23] their first 6 to 12 months just trying
[5:26] to do more of what had got them there.
[5:29] Right? It's the what got you here won't
[5:31] get you there, you know, um catchphrase,
[5:34] right? But it's I'm just going to dig in
[5:37] and, you know, if I'm a first-time
[5:39] leader, I'm just going to be a super
[5:42] individual contributor,
[5:44] right? I'm just going to dig in and
[5:45] white knuckle it. or if I'm now managing
[5:47] managers, instead of kind of coming into
[5:50] the new identity of I manage five
[5:52] managers, it's I manage five teams,
[5:55] right? And and so how do you truly step
[5:56] up into that level? Um and I' I've seen
[6:00] these transitions both um harm careers,
[6:05] right? people who are promoted and don't
[6:07] get that support and flame out or and
[6:10] I've just seen people sort of, you know,
[6:12] circling and swirling and not truly
[6:15] stepping into their level of potential
[6:17] that they could if they were supported
[6:18] more intentionally. So I um it's it's
[6:21] one of like you know one of the things I
[6:23] do and a passion area of mine is
[6:24] supporting internal promotes. Yeah,
[6:26] that's that's really interesting because
[6:27] I've been on the inside of that a bit of
[6:30] when uh I've supported director plus
[6:33] people in big organizations like Google
[6:35] and chief of staff in strategic
[6:36] operations roles and that's always the
[6:39] biggest complaint I get when I'm
[6:40] supporting those people is, hey, X, Y,
[6:43] and Z doesn't know how to delegate.
[6:44] They're burning out all of the people.
[6:46] We're getting dragged into all of these
[6:47] requests. We can solve it by ourselves.
[6:50] And why why are they spending so much
[6:52] time doing all of this? And then the
[6:54] optics, they don't realize their optics
[6:55] of if they're sending an email at 7 a.m.
[6:57] and 7 p.m. It comes across, even if
[6:59] they're doing fine and measured, it
[7:01] comes across as frantic and it's
[7:03] stressing out the team. And there's all
[7:05] of these little things that really
[7:06] worked when you were maybe a mid manager
[7:08] or a staff and now as a director, it's
[7:11] actually better to do nothing. It's
[7:12] better to be quieter and in the
[7:14] backgrounds and spending that time with
[7:15] the season's leaders. So, I'd be
[7:17] curious. This would be really helpful
[7:18] for I'm sure a lot of people on here are
[7:20] trying to take that next step to get
[7:22] promoted to a manager or manager to
[7:24] director.
[7:26] What are what would you recommend? What
[7:28] have you seen gone wrong and what would
[7:30] you recommend instead and how do you
[7:31] coach people through that?
[7:34] It's a it's a great question. Um I you
[7:37] know I would say it comes down to
[7:39] um you know mindset shift, skill set
[7:42] shift, right? Um, you know, anytime
[7:45] you're making, we talk about the the
[7:47] transformation trilogy, right? Anytime
[7:49] you're making a a big change, it you
[7:52] could
[7:53] um you could talk about moving from one
[7:56] apartment to another or an apartment to
[7:58] a home or moving from one home to
[8:00] another home, right? That there's always
[8:01] things that you have that will still
[8:05] serve you, right? It could be your
[8:06] dining table, right? like my my dining
[8:09] table. I'm moving from this, you know,
[8:11] this apartment to a home, but the dining
[8:15] room in the new home will fit this
[8:16] dining room table. That's great. Um, my
[8:20] bed, I had a king-size bed, however, in
[8:23] the room I need to move into in this
[8:25] home, it's not going to accommodate the
[8:28] king-size bed, right? And then, oh, we
[8:30] actually have a whole second living room
[8:32] now. I've only ever had one. Now, we
[8:34] need to acquire some new furniture over
[8:35] here, right? So, there's always going to
[8:36] be things that you can keep um that
[8:39] worked for you that you can continue to
[8:42] use and leverage. There's going to be
[8:44] things that you're going to need to
[8:46] acquire, right? Some new skills that you
[8:48] might need to acquire. I'm going to
[8:49] start bringing this back. How do we
[8:50] relate this back to leadership? Um, but
[8:52] then there's going to be some things you
[8:54] need to let go of, right? You know, that
[8:55] that king-size bed I loved. It's not
[8:57] going to fit in this room. I'm going to
[8:58] have to get rid of it, right? And get
[9:00] one that fits here. So, it's, you know,
[9:02] what are the things that made me
[9:03] successful that I need to keep? What are
[9:06] the new things I need to add and learn?
[9:09] And what are some of the things that
[9:11] just aren't going to serve me anymore at
[9:12] this level that I need to let go of?
[9:14] Right? And so, sometimes that comes in
[9:17] the form of a mindset shift. Right? So,
[9:20] you were talking about leaders who get
[9:22] overly involved in their, you know,
[9:24] direct reports work, right? And that
[9:26] happens at every level because at every
[9:28] level you need to have a mindset shift
[9:30] to what was you know what was the
[9:32] equation for success in my previous role
[9:35] and what's the equation for success now
[9:38] right and you see it most pronounced
[9:40] with um f you know first level leaders
[9:44] people who are managing individual
[9:45] contributors um the other you know
[9:48] they're much farther up the pipeline you
[9:49] see it pretty pronounced when you move
[9:51] into sort of business unit leading where
[9:55] you're now taking on functions you have
[9:56] no expertise in. It's another place
[9:59] where you see the kind of the biggest
[10:00] challenge in making this transition. But
[10:03] if we kind of come down the pipeline and
[10:04] say so what you know the equation of
[10:06] success right when I was an individual
[10:08] contributor my own effort brute force uh
[10:11] of getting things done is what equaled
[10:14] success. It's what got my name in lights
[10:17] so to speak. And so what's you know a
[10:20] big mindset shift you have to make when
[10:22] you're stepping up even you know
[10:24] especially in that very first level of
[10:26] leadership is what is success now right
[10:29] because I'm used to meeting with my boss
[10:31] and telling my boss what I've gotten
[10:33] done what are the roadblocks that I need
[10:36] [Music]
[10:37] removed but a good boss you know that
[10:41] manager level who's managing these first
[10:43] level leaders should probably be wholly
[10:45] unimpressed by hearing about what you
[10:47] got done this week, right? They they
[10:49] want to hear about what your team's
[10:50] gotten done this week, right? And that
[10:53] mindset shift when you start to think
[10:55] about my s it's what my people are
[10:58] getting done is my
[11:00] success is a huge, you know, mindset
[11:03] shift for leaders to make. I I use
[11:05] really poor grammar. I was talking to a
[11:07] a group of leaders the other day. I was
[11:09] like, I'm gonna intentionally use some
[11:10] bad grammar here, which is, you know,
[11:12] meetings. How many of you are in like so
[11:14] many meetings now? And it feels like a
[11:16] waste of your time, right? But meetings
[11:19] is work at the next level. Like that is
[11:21] partially your work now is is being in
[11:23] these meetings. And so it's this reframe
[11:26] of how do I spend my time? What equals
[11:30] success? And how do I now deliver
[11:33] results through other people is sort of
[11:35] an initial mindset shift that needs to
[11:37] be made. Let alone picking up different
[11:39] levels of skills on like how do I
[11:41] delegate effectively? How do I build
[11:43] influence among not only my direct team
[11:47] who might not know me or or if I'm an
[11:48] internal promote knew me when I was, you
[11:52] know, one of them. So, not only is there
[11:54] a whole need to build influence among
[11:56] your direct reports, but also starting
[11:58] to build uh that influence, you know,
[12:01] across the organization, across your
[12:03] your peers, whether or not they report
[12:05] to your immediate director. So there's,
[12:06] you know, both these mindset shifts you
[12:08] have to start to make and these skill
[12:11] set shifts you have to start to make and
[12:13] and frankly the earlier you can get
[12:16] started on these things, the better.
[12:19] Yeah, I think that it's really
[12:20] impressive that you brought up that. I'd
[12:22] completely relate with it all is and
[12:26] it's exactly what I've seen is it's
[12:28] funny enough you said it like what got
[12:29] you here won't get you there, right? And
[12:31] it it very much is I've seen internally
[12:34] technical people, very technical people
[12:36] get a promotion and now they're managing
[12:37] a crossf functional organization, right?
[12:40] Yeah. And they don't know the other work
[12:42] that they're managing and they get a
[12:44] little flustered and they start trying
[12:45] to dive into the details to understand
[12:46] it all. They don't realize that they
[12:48] don't have to do that. They just have to
[12:49] trust their leaders that their leaders
[12:51] know what they're doing. And so, yeah, I
[12:55] would be curious on your perspective on
[12:58] what it's like. Like, do you need the
[13:00] technical chops to get to that
[13:03] leadership position or is a leadership
[13:05] skill itself more important?
[13:09] That's a that's a fascinating question.
[13:12] Um, it's rare for a leader to be
[13:16] promoted into a function that they have
[13:19] zero background in, right? Or zero skill
[13:22] level in until you get to a certain
[13:24] level, right? If I think to
[13:27] [Music]
[13:28] um General Mills where I was, they're
[13:30] they're president of retail, right? And
[13:34] the retail group is where Cheerios comes
[13:36] from, for example. like that person
[13:39] can't possibly have background in
[13:42] manufacturing and design and marketing
[13:45] and food science and sales, you know,
[13:49] and and and right. Yeah. So, it's easy
[13:51] to explain that at a higher level.
[13:54] Eventually, you are going to have to
[13:55] take on functions that you have no
[13:58] background in. um it's less common
[14:02] farther down the pipeline, right, that
[14:03] you would be promoted into a function
[14:05] that you have no background, especially
[14:07] as a leader. But there are certainly
[14:10] people who vehemently uh believe, right,
[14:13] that leadership, you know, you could
[14:16] drop a great leader into any scenario
[14:19] and they'll be successful because
[14:20] leadership in and of itself is its own
[14:23] skill. It just so happens that we tend
[14:26] to promote the best widget maker to
[14:27] become the new widget maker leader. Um,
[14:30] which isn't actually always uh a proxy
[14:34] for leadership potential, being good at
[14:36] your doing job, right? Well, isn't that
[14:38] interesting? I I think that's so
[14:40] fascinating that many organizations and
[14:42] I think what you're pitching is so
[14:43] different and better is many
[14:45] organizations either promote the best
[14:47] widget maker or promote some other
[14:49] department's best second widget maker to
[14:52] be the new leader. But then that isn't
[14:54] necessarily what makes a good leader at
[14:56] all. That they could have no
[14:58] qualifications at all based off of your
[15:00] experience or the years you've been in a
[15:01] profession. It's something totally
[15:03] different. And I guess what you're
[15:04] offering is to train that different and
[15:07] and it's not necessarily a trait even
[15:08] though some people might naturally be
[15:10] better at it. It's more of a skill. And
[15:12] so and it's not something you even learn
[15:14] in college really like going to an NBA
[15:16] program. I've done NBA you've learned
[15:17] theory around it but it's an applicable
[15:19] skill. It's an applied skill. And so
[15:22] um how I guess how do you realize when
[15:25] do organizations realize that they need
[15:27] someone like you and how how do they
[15:30] start taking advantage of that?
[15:33] That's a great it's a great question.
[15:36] Um, so I've had the fortune of working
[15:39] for really big, you know, Fortune 500
[15:41] companies who had already primarily had
[15:44] this stuff in place with the exception
[15:45] of of Buffalo Wild Wings, right? It was
[15:47] leadership development was brand new
[15:48] when I got there. Somebody had already
[15:51] laid all the groundwork to, you know,
[15:53] form the function when I was there. Um,
[15:56] but people were really hungry for it,
[15:59] right? And I think what what led a
[16:01] company like Buffalo Wild Wings, this
[16:04] would have been 2015, something like
[16:06] that, to really starting to think
[16:09] about should we be more intentional
[16:11] about how we develop leaders, right? So
[16:13] they're a great ca they're a great case
[16:14] study, a great example of, you know, if
[16:17] you think even down to the restaurant
[16:18] level, like who gets promoted to manage
[16:21] servers, right? Either the best server
[16:24] and or the most extroverted server.
[16:27] Yeah. Right. because ex extroverts stand
[16:29] out and unfortunately extroversion can
[16:32] be used as a proxy for leadership
[16:34] potential um unintentionally. Um, so
[16:37] they looked at this and said starting to
[16:40] see direct correlation
[16:42] to poor leadership, especially down at
[16:45] like a restaurant level, leading to high
[16:47] turnover, for example, and great
[16:50] engagement, right? Leading to great
[16:52] great team member
[16:54] engagement leading to higher retention,
[16:57] higher sales, things like this. And so
[16:59] they had, you know, looked at how do we
[17:02] start to
[17:04] improve retention, improve sales and
[17:06] they started to look at leadership
[17:08] there. Usually when we start to look at
[17:11] smaller companies, there's some kind of
[17:12] pain happening. Um there's a a mil a mil
[17:15] works organization that um came to me
[17:19] wanting some some leadership development
[17:20] and a very similar issue was going on
[17:22] there, right? this this sole HR person
[17:26] was telling me, right, that they they've
[17:27] basically replaced every role in their
[17:30] organization twice this last year,
[17:32] right? And so, usually there's some kind
[17:34] of pain um happening before someone
[17:38] wants to bring in either whether whether
[17:40] it's programmatic leadership development
[17:42] or even a coach, right? Something's
[17:44] going on that is causing other
[17:47] downstream problems. Um, when things are
[17:51] going swimmingly, nobody thinks they
[17:53] need much help at all. Right. Um,
[17:58] yeah, I don't know if that answers the
[17:59] No, it does. And I think some of the
[18:00] question, what are some of those leading
[18:02] indicators that an organization is
[18:03] saying, "Oh, my leadership is getting
[18:05] capped out." Is that higher turnover?
[18:07] You mentioned one of them. What are some
[18:08] other things that leaders watching this
[18:10] can flag and say, "Oh, maybe this is
[18:12] something I need."
[18:14] Yeah.
[18:15] Um, so I I think you you can almost look
[18:18] to varying team member engagement data
[18:21] points to point at, you know, quite a
[18:24] quite a few leadership ills, so to
[18:27] speak. Um, so general engagement being
[18:29] low, turnover being high, uh,
[18:32] absenteeism ticking up. Um
[18:37] uh you you can see
[18:41] certain if if results start to dip in an
[18:45] otherwise historically strong team or
[18:48] department or even company when you
[18:52] can't point to external factors right in
[18:54] the market. It's hard to do these days,
[18:57] but uh when you're when you're pointing
[18:59] to, you know, when you can't exactly
[19:00] point to a market dynamic, you know,
[19:02] there's a good chance that, you know, I
[19:07] don't even want to say leadership is to
[19:08] blame, but that leadership is the key
[19:10] to, you know, turning it around, right?
[19:13] because you might have a great
[19:15] leader who via instinct and just hard
[19:21] work has been great, but you know
[19:22] there's a lot of opportunity to continue
[19:24] to up your game. Um, right. So, I'd say
[19:26] leadership development isn't only for
[19:28] those or even even coaching isn't only
[19:31] for those where those situations where
[19:33] some fixing is needed. It it also is a
[19:36] great unlock where you're trying to just
[19:39] take it to the next level. be that team
[19:41] performance or company performance.
[19:43] Yeah, that makes sense. So, let's say
[19:46] I'm in you come into a new organization.
[19:48] Let's say I hire you new organization.
[19:50] Um, and I tell you, hey, our our
[19:53] turnover has been a little higher. Um,
[19:55] performance hasn't been the best. We
[19:57] have a new leader here who's pretty
[19:59] experienced from another department. Um,
[20:01] but and we want you to start working
[20:03] with her. What are some things that How
[20:05] do you start that off? What do you what
[20:06] are some ways that you get some quick
[20:08] wins with a person or where do you where
[20:10] do you normally see that's wrong, you
[20:11] know? Yeah, if I could if I could wave
[20:13] the magic wand, we would start that
[20:15] hopefully be getting that question um as
[20:18] close to that person's start date as as
[20:21] possible, right? Because I think nailing
[20:23] the first
[20:25] quarter is critical, right, with a a new
[20:30] promotion. Um, so a couple things,
[20:33] right? And and I actually on my uh which
[20:36] if if this is a a time to mention it or
[20:38] not, on my website, I do have a what I
[20:41] call my internal promotion playbook. Uh
[20:44] it's a 90-day success blueprint. Um
[20:47] easily, you know, something a new leader
[20:50] can pick up or even somebody who
[20:51] supports uh a newly promoted leader. But
[20:54] I would say really thinking about how
[20:56] you're spending those first three
[20:57] months. Um this isn't, you know, rocket
[21:01] science uh per se, right? I think there
[21:03] there's general advice out there of, you
[21:05] know, make sure you're spending your
[21:07] time listening. Don't try to make big
[21:09] changes in your early days, but I would
[21:11] say from a practical
[21:14] perspective, really digging in on,
[21:16] especially from an internal promote,
[21:18] truly getting to the root of what are my
[21:20] goals and objectives in this new role,
[21:22] right? I'm used to how I was held
[21:24] accountable in a previous role. What am
[21:27] I now held accountable for? What does
[21:29] the team performance or overall
[21:32] performance on the team need to be for
[21:34] me to be
[21:35] successful? Taking a look in the mirror
[21:37] and
[21:39] understanding where where are my skills
[21:41] today when it comes to a leader. I know
[21:43] I had what it took to do the previous
[21:45] role, but what is it that I need to do
[21:47] now? and really taking a hard and honest
[21:49] look to understand your own development
[21:51] needs as well as beginning, you know,
[21:54] especially in this that very first
[21:55] month, beginning to map
[21:57] out your stakeholders who have the
[22:00] inputs that come into your team, where
[22:02] do the outputs of your team go? You
[22:04] know, who are the people that are either
[22:06] going to be giving you the things you
[22:07] you and your team need to do your work
[22:10] or where is the work that your team is
[22:11] doing going next? because that's going
[22:13] to be a critical group to begin building
[22:16] some relationships with from a long-term
[22:18] influence perspective, but also making
[22:20] sure you're spending time with the team
[22:22] just getting to know them like in that
[22:24] very very first month. Um, one thing
[22:28] that I often do, especially again, if
[22:30] you can get at this early, um, you know,
[22:34] is is a number of organizations do this.
[22:36] I you know I I learned it
[22:38] um you know from my leader at Cargill
[22:42] when I was in talent management there
[22:43] and I've I've now continued to do this
[22:45] everywhere I've gone and I see
[22:47] consultants doing this very same thing.
[22:48] It's called a new manager assimilation.
[22:50] Right? We've got to let some steam out
[22:51] of the balloon with the team as well. So
[22:54] this is where either an HR business
[22:56] partner or uh a talent management person
[22:59] or or a consultant and coach from the
[23:01] outside can come in and let's let some
[23:03] steam out of the out of the balloon with
[23:05] the team, right? Right? Because when
[23:06] there's a new promotion, when it's maybe
[23:07] somebody from outside of the team or if
[23:09] it's somebody from inside the team, even
[23:12] even if it's somebody coming from
[23:13] outside the company, there's going to be
[23:15] a lot of thoughts, questions, feelings
[23:17] about this new leader coming in. Yeah,
[23:19] it makes sense. Someone someone wanted
[23:20] the promotion, they didn't get it. That
[23:22] people are asking why was it external or
[23:24] why was it this person versus that
[23:26] person? All that stuff. What does it
[23:28] mean for us? Is our job going to change?
[23:30] Yeah. Yeah. And it's I think it's
[23:32] important to kind of meet those things
[23:33] headon, right? to in a new manager
[23:35] assimilation process which it's not
[23:37] necessarily in my my blueprint per se
[23:39] but it it is something I absolutely
[23:41] recommend with with um new leaders you
[23:44] know period is you know you start by
[23:46] talking to some of the team members you
[23:47] have a third party talk to the team
[23:48] members and ask just some basic
[23:50] questions around what do you already
[23:52] know about this new leader what don't
[23:53] you know that you want to know what do
[23:55] you think this person needs to know
[23:56] about you or the team in particular what
[23:59] are some of the challenges that this
[24:01] team has historically had that you think
[24:02] this new leader needs to be aware of.
[24:05] Like it's, you know, you kind of try to
[24:08] uncover where some of the raw nerves
[24:10] are, but it's also a huge opportunity to
[24:13] give leaders some early feedback, not
[24:15] only about them if they're a known
[24:16] quantity, but maybe about some of the
[24:18] historical dynamics on the team or where
[24:21] this team sits in the organization.
[24:23] your your HR person or your external
[24:26] consultant can then sit down with the
[24:27] leader and kind of go through this
[24:28] feedback and organize a maybe just a
[24:31] two-hour meeting with the team where you
[24:34] then are having the leader kind of lean
[24:35] in and say, "All right, here's
[24:37] everything I heard from the team. let me
[24:39] respond to some of the questions you
[24:40] have about me and tell you a bit more
[24:41] about me, what my expectations are, um
[24:45] what I've heard are, you know, some of
[24:47] the challenges on the team and what I
[24:48] can commit to today or what I can commit
[24:51] to investigating further and it just
[24:53] sort of opens up, you know, a better
[24:55] dialogue with a team. I will
[24:58] say when that is
[25:02] done the chances for success, you know,
[25:05] there's no guarantees in life, but the
[25:07] chances for success are always higher.
[25:09] Um, because I' i've seen enough of the
[25:12] situations where that's not done. And
[25:14] it's really hard to I'll I'll try to use
[25:18] a better metaphor than I might otherwise
[25:19] use, but it's like it's really hard to
[25:20] unbake a cake. Um, right. And so when
[25:24] you're, you know, when you're six
[25:25] months, six months down the line and you
[25:29] missed some of these critical early
[25:31] conversations even with the team and
[25:32] even just just setting some basic
[25:34] expectations on who's this new leader
[25:36] and what's their style, um, yeah, it can
[25:39] be it can make what's already a hard
[25:43] transition twice as hard. What's so
[25:46] interesting is I I've been in enough
[25:48] organizations and reorganizations to
[25:51] know what you say is definitely right,
[25:53] but rarely happens unfortunately, right?
[25:56] Like it's so easy for a new leader to
[25:57] come in or reorganization to happen and
[25:59] there to be this top down mandate.
[26:01] Here's your congratulations, here's your
[26:03] new leader and then maybe some informal
[26:05] conversations, but everyone just wonders
[26:07] what it means for or in limbo for a very
[26:10] long time. And um and that sounds this
[26:12] sounds like the cure to it. I I think
[26:14] you can knock out it's shocking. Yeah,
[26:17] that blows my mind. How rare rare it is.
[26:19] Yeah, cuz it's
[26:21] what what's the saying? It's you know a
[26:24] ounce of prevention is worth you know I
[26:27] can't remember how the rest of the
[26:28] saying goes, right? But it's like we we
[26:29] worry about the time it'll take now
[26:33] to put the building blocks in place for
[26:36] the longer term, but the impacts of not
[26:39] doing these things farther down the line
[26:40] are even more costly. You know, it's the
[26:42] it's the same reason why um the same
[26:46] basic rationale we used to use at PDI
[26:47] for selection assessments. It's like if
[26:49] you're hiring a, you know,
[26:54] $300,500,000 a year VP or, you know,
[26:57] upwards and upwards, the cost of making
[27:00] a poor mistake, you know, a poor hiring
[27:02] decision is astronomical, right? And the
[27:05] cost of an assessment on the front end,
[27:07] for example, is, you know, pennies on
[27:09] the dollar if if you can avoid even one
[27:13] bad hiring, right? One one hiring
[27:16] mistake. It's the same thing with, you
[27:17] know, an internal promotion. If you
[27:18] could put the work in on the front end,
[27:20] you can avoid so many headaches down the
[27:23] road. Yeah. I mean, it makes perfect
[27:25] sense. And I I'm curious if you've had
[27:27] to face this. I'm I'm sure you have.
[27:30] What do you do when you face leaders or
[27:32] you're training a leader and it's very
[27:33] clear they're worried more about optics
[27:35] than outcome?
[27:39] That is a great question.
[27:41] Um, so if somebody's worried about
[27:44] optics as opposed to outcomes, there's a
[27:46] you're primarily probably dealing with a
[27:48] major mindset challenge here. um they're
[27:52] worried
[27:54] about at least in my experience you know
[27:57] how are how do they look because of
[28:00] what's happening right or you know how
[28:02] is performance on the team going to
[28:04] affect their reputation right
[28:07] and your reputation is inextricably
[28:11] linked with your team now right and
[28:15] so
[28:17] honestly that's a hard thing to address
[28:19] with classic leadership develment-
[28:21] Right? That is where I think coaching
[28:23] can come in. And can you get there
[28:27] with that person's leader coaching them
[28:30] or an HR person coaching them? You
[28:32] probably
[28:34] could, but as with almost all leadership
[28:38] challenges, how are you balancing the
[28:40] day-to-day needs with also this acute
[28:42] need with this leader as well? Right? So
[28:45] most leaders who would be trying to
[28:47] coach the you know most higher level
[28:49] leaders who would be trying to coach
[28:50] this leader or HR person who's trying to
[28:51] coach this leader are going to have so
[28:53] many other day-to-day challenges that
[28:55] they're dealing with where especially in
[28:57] a in a case like you're describing. You
[28:59] know having an executive coach who can
[29:01] come in from the outside who has no
[29:03] stake in your um success per se
[29:08] um I think can be hugely beneficial.
[29:10] Right? you're in a position to possibly
[29:13] be even more direct um and candid in
[29:17] feedback with this person than their own
[29:19] people are. Right? I was I was brought
[29:21] in um to an organization to coach a
[29:25] leader who uh we were trying to unbake
[29:27] the cake right 6 months in and here I am
[29:31] probably giving this person feedback
[29:32] that they've never had in their career
[29:35] right and but but being in a unique
[29:38] situation to say to this
[29:42] person you know I don't know if
[29:44] anybody's ever told you this but here's
[29:46] what I'm hearing in the feedback you
[29:48] know what are your thoughts on that.
[29:52] Um,
[29:55] and sorry, the the whole thing is coming
[29:58] back now and it's throwing me off. Oh,
[30:00] no. I'm sorry. That's a bummer. I don't
[30:02] know where that's coming from. Yeah. Uh,
[30:08] I'm going to try to persevere. Can you
[30:10] Wait, let me see. Does this fix it? If I
[30:12] do
[30:13] this, it's
[30:15] gone. Wait, that's so weird. I wonder
[30:17] where that's coming from. Well, I'll
[30:19] when you're talking, I'll mute my
[30:20] microphone and hopefully that'll okay
[30:22] have that go and then I need to figure
[30:24] out what that is. So, thank maybe it's
[30:25] the Bluetooth. Did you want to ask the
[30:28] question again? I don't know what's
[30:28] what's best for you for editing. Yeah,
[30:31] let me let me see if I can figure
[30:33] out does that solve it?
[30:37] No, not really. Okay, we're okay. I'm so
[30:41] sorry about that. I have no post on it.
[30:42] Yeah, I'll just ask the question again
[30:44] and we'll and we'll go from there. Um,
[30:46] and then we'll figure out and post. So,
[30:48] sorry about that.
[30:51] Who
[30:52] knows? Okay. So, yeah, I'm curious.
[30:57] So funny. All right. Sorry. I'll try.
[30:58] Yeah. Yeah. No, it's all good, man. It's
[31:00] so funny how this stuff works out. I
[31:02] technology is so annoying. So, I'm I'm
[31:04] curious. How do you manage a leader who
[31:06] is more concerned with optics than
[31:08] outcome?
[31:10] Yeah. Um, so it's a great question and I
[31:14] I
[31:15] come back to something we were talking
[31:16] about earlier, which is mindset shift,
[31:19] right? And
[31:21] um needing to sort
[31:24] of remind yourself
[31:27] that your, you know, if you're concerned
[31:30] about optics, there's probably some of a
[31:32] personal reputation concern happening
[31:34] here. How is what's happening on my team
[31:36] or my team's performance or even this
[31:37] one individual's performance reflecting
[31:39] on me, right? and some of the mindset
[31:43] shift that you have to make that your
[31:45] reputation is your teams
[31:49] but h like how do you recalibrate what
[31:52] your leader is going to be? So you're
[31:55] you're clearly worried about impressing
[31:57] people. So what's going to impress your
[31:58] leader more? Your ability to shut down a
[32:01] problem or your ability to develop
[32:03] someone through a problem, right? and to
[32:06] really dig in to a problem situation and
[32:09] coach someone through. At least that's
[32:11] sort of where my head goes when you're
[32:13] asking this question of um uh optics
[32:16] versus outcomes, right? And cuz I I I
[32:20] find almost the opposite to be a focus
[32:23] for leaders is, you know, and this is
[32:26] where I see a lot of a lot of leaders
[32:27] fall into the trap of like
[32:30] worrying about how things are getting
[32:33] done versus that things are getting
[32:35] done, right? And that's where, you know,
[32:37] micromanagement, you know, tends to come
[32:40] into place is, you know, we're
[32:41] delegating or we're asking someone to do
[32:42] something or we are correcting, you
[32:46] know, and now we're dictating how they
[32:47] do it or we're digging in and giving
[32:49] feedback and and picking in on um the
[32:53] minutia of how things get done versus
[32:55] focusing on that outcome. Did the
[32:57] outcome get where we needed it to be? In
[32:59] which case, how do you let go of how you
[33:02] might have done things in the past? I
[33:03] kind of gave you two completely separate
[33:06] answers to that question. Let me know
[33:08] how that works for you. No, no, that's
[33:10] that's great. I'm just curious if you
[33:11] have any specific example of someone
[33:13] that you've worked with and maybe I give
[33:14] you a little more detail from my end.
[33:16] Um, and hopefully that adds a little
[33:17] more context. But let's say you have
[33:19] someone come in and you it's very
[33:21] obvious that they're looking out for the
[33:23] way to get to their next promotion,
[33:25] right? Like that's their primary
[33:27] concern. It's not necessarily managing
[33:29] the team and they're okay to throw their
[33:31] own team under the bus or even other
[33:34] leaders on the in the same organization
[33:36] under the bus in order to advance their
[33:37] own objectives. I say this because I
[33:40] think it's more common than most people
[33:41] care to admit and I I'm just curious how
[33:44] you manage it as an external
[33:45] professional because I it's obvious when
[33:48] people do it, but it it can be really
[33:50] challenging for the leader leader, the
[33:52] leader's boss to be able to detect it
[33:54] because they're so busy, right?
[33:56] Um, yes. And that's a hard thing to
[34:00] detect too, right? Because you know, you
[34:02] know it when you see it, right? That's
[34:04] it's that's the unfortunate part is it's
[34:06] hard to like give someone the, you know,
[34:09] checklist of like if you see these
[34:11] things, you know, this is what you're
[34:12] dealing with. It's it's one of these you
[34:14] know it when you see it kind of things.
[34:17] Um, yeah, it's a real challenge and to
[34:20] your point, way more common than anyone
[34:23] would want to admit. There's a a
[34:26] consultant I've worked with for years
[34:27] who he talks about, you know, leadership
[34:31] success is a lot, you know, how do you
[34:34] how are you defining leadership success?
[34:35] Is it promotability or getting
[34:37] done? Right? Excuse my French. Like, is
[34:39] it the results or is it promotability?
[34:41] Because there's a lot of ways to
[34:42] promotability that have nothing to do
[34:44] with actually getting anything done and
[34:46] producing any level of results, right?
[34:51] Um, now the question is, you know, can
[34:55] you help someone like that, you know,
[34:57] and and it comes down to I think my my
[34:59] favorite uh joke and I think it comes
[35:02] originally from therapy, but I've heard
[35:04] it applied in, you know, the coaching
[35:06] sense, which is like how many coaches
[35:07] does it take to change a leader? Well,
[35:10] just one, but the leader really needs to
[35:12] want to change. Um, so part of it comes
[35:14] down to does does the leader themselves
[35:16] see the need for change? And sometimes
[35:20] the coaching can be a part of the
[35:22] process to get that person there. Always
[35:25] better if if they're already there.
[35:26] That's for sure.
[35:28] Um I mean I'm up for a good challenge
[35:31] either way. And have found both from
[35:32] just a personal why I got into this
[35:35] perspective. Both are equally
[35:37] satisfying. Um so I was brought in uh to
[35:41] an organization to coach a leader. So s
[35:43] we you know we were talking about
[35:44] internal promotes. Um, and I was talking
[35:47] about, you know, this new manager
[35:48] assimilation process. I was I was
[35:49] basically brought in to do that process
[35:51] at month six, right? Trying to unbake
[35:54] the cake, um, so to speak. And this was
[35:58] a leader who had, you know, very clear
[36:01] opinions on what leadership was, what
[36:04] they were there to do, and how they were
[36:06] there to do it. Um,
[36:09] and you know, I I would say the the
[36:11] process in and of itself helped
[36:14] highlight to them some of the impact
[36:16] that they were having too, right, on on
[36:18] others. So sometimes it's some really
[36:20] clear feedback on how what you're doing
[36:22] is impacting the system, impacting
[36:24] others. I would say it while it's super
[36:28] common for leaders to be in it for
[36:30] themselves, you know, or or at least a
[36:32] certain slice of leaders to be in it for
[36:34] themselves, most people don't wake up
[36:36] wanting to make other people's lives
[36:38] miserably or miserable. And so sometimes
[36:41] the process of of helping them see how
[36:44] they're impacting others, how that's
[36:46] impacting results, how all these things
[36:48] that maybe they've been neglecting
[36:51] ultimately impact this perception of
[36:53] them, the perception that they want to
[36:55] have more than they even recognized
[36:58] prior. Um, sometimes it's it's it's an
[37:01] assessment or it's conversations with,
[37:03] you know, their team to sort of get to
[37:04] the bottom of what's going on. Usually
[37:07] before I'm brought in, someone has
[37:09] identified, especially in a case like
[37:11] that, someone has identified that
[37:12] something's not quite right. Um, it's
[37:16] rare that I'd be brought in and then
[37:17] uncovering that something's not quite
[37:19] right, but not wholly uncover. Well, and
[37:22] then let's maybe flip it. Let's say
[37:23] you're working with a leader whose boss
[37:26] is Makavelian or has some of these like
[37:29] inclinations. How do you help them work
[37:32] through that?
[37:33] Hm. So say a little bit more like let's
[37:36] say you come in and you're working with
[37:38] VPs or a man or a senior manager and
[37:41] they come to you and they say like
[37:42] listen I'm trying to get this done but I
[37:44] know my boss is undermining me. Like my
[37:46] boss is trying to undermine these steps
[37:48] or these other people in the
[37:49] organization are intentionally making me
[37:51] look bad while I'm trying to look out
[37:53] for my team. How do I how do I manage up
[37:56] and to the side while protecting my team
[38:00] or making sure that we're cutting out
[38:02] the noise and focusing on our goals?
[38:04] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[38:06] Yeah. That's that's tough, right?
[38:08] Because I I would say there's there's a
[38:10] lot in there, right? And I think a lot
[38:12] of what I'm what I'm hear if you were a
[38:14] leader a lot of what I'm hearing I would
[38:15] I would question how much of that you is
[38:19] the story you're telling yourself
[38:22] versus what you're actually hearing on
[38:24] the ground. Um but either way what I'm
[38:28] hearing I would start to ask you some
[38:30] questions about how much time you've
[38:31] spent with your peers
[38:35] um and just other crossf functional
[38:38] folks in the organization. So one one
[38:40] challenge I keep seeing in leaders
[38:44] is especially in the early days um first
[38:48] year even is a huge missed opportunity
[38:52] to spend more time with your
[38:53] stakeholders right and actually spending
[38:55] some time to truly map out who are my
[38:57] stakeholders and it's with really good
[38:59] intention especially with new promotes
[39:02] you're so focused on hitting the ground
[39:03] running getting things done making sure
[39:06] your team's getting things done that the
[39:09] idea of having coffee with your um
[39:15] marketing
[39:16] partner feels like a waste of time,
[39:18] right? It's it's you don't see the
[39:20] immediate results of spending time with
[39:23] those peers as you do with how you're
[39:26] spending your time with your direct
[39:27] reports, right? you you see that the
[39:29] impact of that day in day out where time
[39:34] with your stakeholders you need to think
[39:36] of that in a much more long-term
[39:39] um think of it like investing in your
[39:41] 401k or your IRA right it's invest early
[39:45] and often um in order to so that that
[39:49] when you need it right when you now need
[39:51] to have
[39:53] influence you have sort of
[39:57] unintentionally or intentionally built
[39:59] it over time before you needed it,
[40:00] right? You've dug your well before you
[40:02] were thirsty, so to speak. Um, so I, you
[40:05] know, I was even in some coaching
[40:06] conversations with a few different
[40:08] leaders, you know, at different levels,
[40:11] different organizations, different
[40:12] functions, but the same kind of issue
[40:14] where, you know, they're getting
[40:15] feedback on, you know, this person, they
[40:17] need to spend, you know, with a 360,
[40:19] like they need to spend more time with
[40:21] their internal customers, you know, and
[40:22] their peers. And I swear each one kind
[40:25] of had the same thing to say, which was
[40:26] like, I've been here a long time. I've
[40:28] spent a lot of time with those peers in
[40:30] the past. I know exactly what they're
[40:32] going to want or what they're going to
[40:33] say or what they're going to tell me.
[40:34] And part of the conversation
[40:37] is part of doing it is to do it and to
[40:40] be seen doing it and to have that person
[40:42] that you're reaching out to to have
[40:44] coffee see you making the effort whether
[40:47] or not you end up learning anything new
[40:49] from it in the process.
[40:52] Now, my my wager would be you will, but
[40:56] even if you don't, right, I I think uh I
[40:59] have lots of metaphors that I use over
[41:01] time, and one of my favorites that I'm
[41:03] sure is a terrible metaphor is like no
[41:05] one um you know, right, than if you had
[41:08] spent the time over whatever that time
[41:10] frame is could be months, years building
[41:14] some rapport with this person, how much
[41:16] more benefit of the doubt are they going
[41:17] to give you versus skepticism? That's so
[41:20] genius and it's something I completely
[41:23] resonate with not just for leaders but
[41:24] for business owners for all all the
[41:27] above. And so many people were critique
[41:28] like critique the consulting model where
[41:31] the partner like why does the partner
[41:32] spend 20 hours a week taking clients
[41:34] out. It's not it's not about taking the
[41:36] clients out like that's a good partner
[41:38] right because you want to make sure you
[41:39] understand people's problems and you're
[41:41] there and you're visible and you're
[41:42] there for the pain points. And you have
[41:44] to do the same as a leader. It's better
[41:45] for you to spend 20 hours meeting with
[41:47] your stakeholders and your team and
[41:49] building those relationships as
[41:50] influence rather than spending that 20
[41:52] hours cleaning up your inbox, right? And
[41:54] they don't they don't see the need for
[41:56] it until they need it. And then they're
[41:58] kicking themselves for not having spent
[41:59] the time before they needed it. Right?
[42:01] And and again, it's it's with great
[42:03] intention. You're trying to get stuff
[42:04] done. You're trying to make sure that
[42:06] your objectives are being met. And so
[42:10] again, you see the immediate impact of
[42:12] where you're spending your time.
[42:13] spending your time with peers. Once
[42:15] you're in the middle of like big cross
[42:17] functional initiative, you know,
[42:18] spending time with your peers, you're
[42:20] not going to see the impact of
[42:22] that. It's a it's a longitud, you know,
[42:24] it's a long-term game. Yeah. And that's
[42:26] the best game to play though because
[42:28] then you're helping people and down the
[42:29] road if you are in that mindset where
[42:32] you're testing your assumptions, maybe
[42:33] some organiz your organization might be
[42:35] a little toxic, well, you're building
[42:36] relationships to go out of that
[42:37] department or you're building
[42:38] relationships to make that organization
[42:40] better or to test those assumptions. So,
[42:42] um, it's very wise and not enough people
[42:44] spend focusing on their capacity,
[42:46] building up their skills like you're
[42:47] saying, and then also their connections,
[42:49] right? That's key. And so, I know we're
[42:50] already running time. This has been
[42:51] really fun to talk to you, Kent, and I
[42:53] hope we can do it again sometime. I want
[42:54] to give a little minute to just ask
[42:55] about like what you're doing this year,
[42:57] um, where people can find you, how
[42:58] people can engage you, and anything else
[43:00] that you're working on that uh, we the
[43:02] audience can know about. Yeah. Fabulous.
[43:05] Um, so I I would say uh you know go to
[43:10] kibballeershipadvisory.com, but that is
[43:11] a mouthful. And so I've recently um
[43:14] built the shortcut for that. So
[43:16] kent.coach would get you to my website.
[43:19] Super easy. Uh two mono mono syllables
[43:23] uh right there. And then the the
[43:25] internal promotion playbook that I was
[43:27] talking about is easy as going to
[43:29] kent.coach/playbook bring you right
[43:31] there. if you're a leader who's been
[43:32] recently promoted or if you support a
[43:35] leader who's been recently promoted or
[43:36] or you're you're staring down the um you
[43:40] know the the tunnel at upcoming
[43:42] promotion, you know, now would be a
[43:44] great time to dig in on that. And that's
[43:46] uh you know 23 pages of just practical
[43:49] advice. So it's it's based actually way
[43:51] less on my time from PDI and Cornferryy
[43:54] and way more on my time in HR being near
[43:57] leaders and next to leaders and seeing
[43:58] what's working, what's not. Um, I'm
[44:01] about to start a podcast. Uh, either
[44:04] it'll drop May or June this year. It's
[44:06] called The Stepup: Expert Voices for
[44:08] Leadership Success. Um, and that will
[44:13] be, you know, a weekly or bi-weekly
[44:16] podcast where I'll be talking to
[44:17] experts. Hope to have you on, in fact.
[44:19] Um, talking to experts who support
[44:21] leaders in stepping up their leadership
[44:23] game. So that could be consultants,
[44:26] uh, authors, HR talent managers,
[44:28] leadership development professionals,
[44:31] um, just looking
[44:32] to, you know, have more of these
[44:34] conversations, share more tips and
[44:37] tricks with leaders. Um, you know, I
[44:39] spend a lot of my time doing both
[44:40] leadership development and coaching,
[44:43] both sort of with myself as well as with
[44:45] various partners. So I'm pretty easy to
[44:48] find online, uh, especially if you can
[44:50] figure out how to spell my last name.
[44:52] Uh, but again, the shortcut uh,
[44:54] kent.coach would get you there even
[44:56] faster. Uh, I love it. I I'll definitely
[44:58] put everything in the links below and
[45:00] I'll make sure that people know. Um,
[45:02] everything you said here is completely
[45:03] accurate from what I've I've heard and
[45:05] there's nothing better than being a
[45:07] leader who can look out for their team,
[45:08] delegate appropriately, help influence
[45:10] to unblock initiatives and reach for
[45:12] outcome and impact rather than optics.
[45:15] So, I think everything you laid out here
[45:17] is so key. Um, few final questions just
[45:19] so everyone gets to know you a little
[45:20] better for for everyone sticks on.
[45:22] Favorite dessert?
[45:24] Oh god, cheesecake. Oh man, that's a
[45:27] good one. Any flavor or just traditional
[45:28] cheesecake?
[45:31] Uh, honestly, just a plain cheese.
[45:33] Nothing better than a plain cheesecake.
[45:35] Uh, but flavors are good, too. Okay.
[45:37] Okay. Good. Good. Favorite leadership
[45:39] book.
[45:41] That's a great question. Um for
[45:44] consultants I would say the leadership
[45:46] pipeline by Shirandrader and Null. It is
[45:49] a tome in the leadership space. So if
[45:51] you're a consultant or a coach you know
[45:53] it's the backbone of a lot of things
[45:55] that PDI and Cornferryy used to do. Um
[45:59] and then if you're a leader one that
[46:02] I've been um enjoying
[46:05] recently two can I give you two more?
[46:07] Yeah. Yes, please. All right. So, one is
[46:10] for leaders, one is called Coachability,
[46:12] and I'm probably going to butcher this
[46:14] gentleman's name. Uh, so hopefully he
[46:17] doesn't see this before he comes on my
[46:18] podcast, but his name is Kevin Wy or
[46:20] Wildy, I'm not sure. WDE. Um, and you
[46:24] know, he's done some research and
[46:25] sharing some information on, you know,
[46:26] it gets lonier and lonier the higher you
[46:28] get in an
[46:29] organization and how coachability is a
[46:33] real sort of superpower for leaders. um
[46:36] because you you tend to get less
[46:38] feedback. Leaders tend to seek less
[46:39] coaching, get less feedback the higher
[46:41] they go. And those who do, you know, the
[46:44] both career results and organizational
[46:46] results that follow um are pretty huge.
[46:50] The other one I share quite frequently
[46:52] is Radical Cander by Kim Scott, right? I
[46:55] think it's a really good call to arms
[46:56] for providing
[46:59] uh direct and honest feedback. one piece
[47:01] of advice that everyone gives that you
[47:04] wish they wouldn't.
[47:06] Yeah. So I I don't know that um it's
[47:09] like a direct piece of advice but um
[47:12] maybe it is is is feedback is a gift
[47:15] right you know now on the one hand I
[47:18] believe I do believe that feedback is a
[47:20] gift but I also think you need to be
[47:23] somewhat discerning as well with
[47:26] feedback right who's giving the feedback
[47:28] is this someone who I would you know I
[47:32] would otherwise be following their
[47:34] advice right because not all feedback is
[47:36] created equally. Um, right. So, I would
[47:39] say always make sure you're putting into
[47:40] context when you're getting feedback.
[47:44] Um, do I care? Do I trust this person?
[47:48] Is it, you know, accurate and helpful?
[47:50] Yeah. And when do you give it to? I
[47:51] can't tell you how many times I've seen
[47:53] like a manager lay into someone who just
[47:55] dropped the ball. It's like, maybe give
[47:56] him a night, you know, like let him
[47:58] sleep on it a little bit before he Yeah.
[47:59] Give him a breather. Yeah. Yeah.
[48:01] Exactly. Um, last piece and then I'll
[48:03] stop pestering you is uh just one word
[48:07] of wisdom. Everything that we just
[48:08] talked about here, if you had a 10 15
[48:10] second platform for a piece of advice
[48:12] that you wish the audience could take
[48:13] away,
[48:16] build self-awareness, right? I think and
[48:18] as the folks at the Hogan organization
[48:20] would say is build strategic
[48:21] self-awareness, right? It's it a leader
[48:25] who never questions themselves, who
[48:28] never wonders what could I have done
[48:31] better or
[48:32] differently. It that's a dangerous
[48:35] leader, right? So, I'd say just build
[48:37] self-awareness. Everybody has room for
[48:39] improvement somewhere in their lives.
[48:42] Um, you know, seek so even though I I
[48:45] just said not all feedback is created
[48:47] equally. However, I did also say
[48:49] coachability that that book's great,
[48:52] right? You know, and and seeking
[48:54] feedback, right? Seek feedback from
[48:55] those who will give it to you straight,
[48:58] who won't sugarcoat things and who want
[49:00] to help you. That's a big thing, too, is
[49:02] feedback usually goes down a lot easier
[49:04] if you know the person's intentions are
[49:07] good. You know, and that's solid and
[49:08] maybe that's a place to land is
[49:10] self-awareness is a superpower. But if
[49:12] you're going to value feedback, feedback
[49:14] is a gift. But just like most gifts,
[49:17] it's best if you want the gift. So if
[49:20] you want feedback, it's great to ask for
[49:21] it. Great to be self-aware, but don't
[49:23] give out gifts that people don't want.
[49:25] If they're not looking for the feedback,
[49:26] it's probably best not to land it on
[49:28] them, especially if they're your boss.
[49:30] So well, and if and if self-awareness is
[49:32] a strength, it can easily become an
[49:34] overused strength as well. So, you also
[49:36] need to know at at what point do you
[49:39] just have to trust yourself and move
[49:40] forward because constantly questioning
[49:42] yourself is a recipe for disaster as
[49:44] well. Yeah, that's right. Sometimes
[49:46] action's better than what what was a
[49:48] quote I I heard recently that I really
[49:50] liked. It was uh there's no original
[49:51] thought. There's only original action.
[49:54] So, don't Oh, I like that. Yeah. So,
[49:55] don't get hung up on the thoughts. Well,
[49:56] thank you, Ken. This was really awesome.
[49:58] I think everyone's going to get a lot of
[49:59] value of it and um I'll catch you next
[50:01] time. All right.