YouTube transcript
Video ID: yJeZmSoKKpA
Language: en
Captions: auto-generated

[0:00] I'll say tell me how you fing jobs are
[0:01] applying I applied to 400 jobs hitting
[0:03] the cold apply button on LinkedIn just
[0:06] getting rejections and no interviews
[0:08] like that is super super common it is
[0:10] not good enough to have a link in a
[0:12] resume that summarizes well what you do
[0:15] often times they're not trying to ask a
[0:17] Goa question where if you don't have
[0:19] direct experience so it's just a fail
[0:21] they would love for you to offer an
[0:22] alternative something in the similar
[0:24] domain hi everyone I'm Devin kums I'm a
[0:26] CPA MBA and top financial adviser for
[0:29] Google Cloud but when I'm not doing that
[0:31] I'm here on ambition aligned where I
[0:32] interview purpose-driven professionals
[0:35] who are making an impact in the world
[0:37] today I'm talking to my good friend
[0:38] Larry who has over 15 years of
[0:40] experience as a technical hiring manager
[0:42] at companies like Snap and Amazon where
[0:45] he was even the raise the bar
[0:47] interviewer and today he's left those
[0:49] companies to be an executive coach who
[0:51] guides professionals under those next
[0:53] big steps promotions new jobs career
[0:56] coaching you name it today he's going to
[0:59] give you his top tips to you and it's
[1:01] going to be awesome this is extremely
[1:02] valuable content today so I encourage
[1:04] you to watch the whole thing through and
[1:06] click subscribe I'm I'm stuck I want to
[1:09] get a job in Tech help me help me break
[1:12] into Tech I want a better job or I want
[1:15] a promotion first of all there's a
[1:17] there's a mindset thing there's a lot of
[1:20] demoralization that can happen when
[1:22] people realize that they have a
[1:24] confidence to do their job if somehow
[1:25] they could just magically start at their
[1:27] next job on day one they would know what
[1:30] to learn what to do and within 30 days
[1:32] they'll be like successful in running at
[1:34] full velocity and people have the
[1:36] confidence around that uh but there is a
[1:40] a mindset things a lot of demoralization
[1:41] that can H demoralization that can
[1:43] happen when you're going in the
[1:45] interviews because interview is a whole
[1:46] separate ball game requires a different
[1:49] skill set and it's super difficult it
[1:51] might be more difficult for experienced
[1:53] professionals than someone right out of
[1:55] uh school for instance or someone early
[1:58] career because it should be hey they
[2:00] should just understand where I've worked
[2:03] in my experience and know that I can do
[2:05] the job why do I have to go through this
[2:07] game of answering hypothetical questions
[2:12] coming up with a resume and it just
[2:15] feels like a song and dance and and I'm
[2:18] just not Finding Traction like this is a
[2:20] really common story I'm an experienced
[2:22] professional I I know I can kick butt in
[2:24] my job but when I go on interviews it's
[2:27] just the message is just not getting
[2:29] across
[2:30] and so one is like change your mindset
[2:32] interviews are a different skill set
[2:35] let's treat it like a job to learn that
[2:37] skill set and practice that skill set
[2:39] and if you come with it with that frame
[2:40] of mind you'll be generating a list of
[2:43] to-dos and you'll be setting aside time
[2:45] to work on these things each day um so a
[2:49] lot of a lot of what I do is just
[2:51] spending time getting like do does
[2:53] someone have the right mindset where
[2:55] they're willing to put in the work to
[2:58] play this game of of inter it's really
[3:00] interesting I'm seeing that a bit too
[3:02] when I'm coaching people of Executives
[3:05] coming in looking for executive
[3:06] positions or senior people coming in for
[3:08] executive positions of top companies and
[3:10] they're surprised they're say why don't
[3:12] they just get it why isn't it easier I
[3:14] think like you said they forget when
[3:16] you're getting your first job it's
[3:19] you're working really hard at it a lot
[3:20] of you're doing interviews internships
[3:22] all this it's its own skill getting a
[3:24] job is a different skill than performing
[3:25] well at the job is that what you're
[3:27] saying yeah right that's exactly what
[3:30] I'm saying in early career you might
[3:31] come in with the the right amount of
[3:33] insecurity which gives you the right
[3:35] amount of motivation to study for the
[3:37] interview by the time maybe there's a
[3:39] sense of entitlement when you have a
[3:40] certain amount of experience and you
[3:41] know you can do the job well that that
[3:44] you have to overcome a little resistance
[3:46] to get back to a learning mindset and
[3:48] take it seriously there's another Factor
[3:51] at play when you go on executive level
[3:53] interviews a lot of times there's a lot
[3:56] less structure to the interviewing
[3:58] process these are un corn-like
[4:01] positions um it it at you're going for
[4:04] early career software the recruiter will
[4:06] tell you you're going to have an hour
[4:07] will you be tested on this an hour
[4:09] you'll be tested on this the executive
[4:11] level it's you're going to meet with a
[4:12] hiring manager for a for a culture fit
[4:15] interview then you're going to meet with
[4:16] a few other uh potential partners and
[4:18] stakeholders and it'll be culture F and
[4:21] and it'll just the the structure is not
[4:24] coming across therefore what are the
[4:26] expectations are not clear therefore
[4:28] what you should be saying and what will
[4:30] make a difference to say it's just
[4:32] there's there's just no rules it's a lot
[4:34] less clear to people and online advice
[4:38] is so troubling to me because it's just
[4:41] very lightweight and non-specific and
[4:45] sometimes it's specific and it has the
[4:46] illusion of being valuable but really
[4:48] not and my favorite example is the star
[4:50] method if you if you don't how how
[4:52] should I talk about my experience in job
[4:53] interviews use a star method as given as
[4:56] as the absolute example like learn the
[4:59] star which for those who don't know talk
[5:01] about a specific experience that you've
[5:03] had an accomplishment that you've had
[5:05] and talk about it using the star
[5:07] framework which is first give the
[5:08] situation then talk about the task you
[5:10] were assigned then give actions uh that
[5:13] you that you did to complete that task
[5:15] and then finally give the results and
[5:17] it's it's just uh troubling if that is
[5:20] someone's complete preparation is
[5:22] learning the star method for uh for job
[5:24] interviews but anyway to give to give
[5:27] people a break you're an experienced
[5:28] professional you're success why should
[5:30] you have to go through this interviewing
[5:31] game that's one bit uh to overcome and
[5:34] the other is you're about to go into a
[5:35] pretty unstructured interview process
[5:38] what what what is expected of you is is
[5:41] is is a is a difficult thing to wrap
[5:43] your head around so first so I'm coming
[5:45] in the door I'm saying I want a better
[5:47] job first it sounds like Get me in the
[5:48] mindset of hey you're actually gonna
[5:50] have to put in some work this isn't
[5:52] gonna be a slam dunk this isn't just
[5:54] you're awesome and your ego your ego's
[5:57] going to get fed more you're probably
[5:58] going to get denied a bit and get ready
[5:59] for rejection and get ready to learn a
[6:01] new skill or Flex muscle you haven't
[6:02] flexed in a while what's next what what
[6:05] do they have to do next Deon I realized
[6:07] now I might be skipping a whole category
[6:10] of things so we're talking interview
[6:11] prep and maybe we should just continue
[6:13] on that and get to the end but if we
[6:14] have time there's also getting those to
[6:17] begin with and that's that's how you're
[6:19] put that's a good point yeah so where
[6:21] where would you let's do that yeah let's
[6:23] start with as a great point so coming to
[6:25] you and saying I'm hey I'm a pretty
[6:27] reputable person I've had a few jobs
[6:30] I I'm looking for something better how
[6:32] do I even get my foot in the door what's
[6:35] going on what what do I do I'm not I'm
[6:38] I'm submitting a crap ton of resumés but
[6:40] I'm not getting any leads I'm not
[6:42] getting any callbacks that's right and I
[6:44] will say right and I will look at your
[6:46] link it will be pretty good I will
[6:48] always have specific things I can help
[6:50] them improve but there's not going to be
[6:52] the huge difference maker they want it
[6:53] to be and I'll say let's look at your
[6:55] resume and it'll be pretty good and I'll
[6:57] give a few bits of advice and it'll get
[7:00] things better and then I'll say and then
[7:02] I'll say tell me how you're applying how
[7:03] you finding jobs are applying and then
[7:06] oh my gosh it'll be this answer um I
[7:08] applied to 400 jobs hitting the cold
[7:10] apply button on LinkedIn there are a
[7:13] couple places where I knew somebody
[7:15] there so I got a warm referral and then
[7:17] but it still it wasn't uh they weren't
[7:19] hiring for the position that uh that I'd
[7:22] be good at so it's basically I'm just
[7:24] getting rejections and no and no
[7:26] interviews and and and that's that's
[7:28] like super I don't mean to make fun like
[7:30] that is super super common it is not
[7:32] good enough to have a a linked in a
[7:35] resume that summarizes well what what
[7:37] you do uh I there there's specific
[7:40] things to do to optimize those you
[7:42] should have a very clear about me so
[7:44] when it finally gets to a human they
[7:46] understand what you're about and the
[7:47] kind of things you're you're capable of
[7:49] doing it have very specific things about
[7:51] your accomplishments without revealing
[7:54] confidential data uh confidential
[7:55] information with your company but if you
[7:57] can provide data about how you got um a
[8:00] key metric from 4% to 20% that's
[8:02] wonderful but in general um you should
[8:05] be echoing As Much from the job
[8:07] descriptions out there as possible on
[8:09] the resume and your LinkedIn so that the
[8:11] keyword matching on on the machine
[8:13] scanning uh will work to get it to a
[8:15] human and then you want a nice quer
[8:17] objective statement so a human is
[8:18] impressive one that's resume in LinkedIn
[8:21] networking is the thing that is missing
[8:23] for most people be and most people know
[8:26] this and it's just so difficult for them
[8:28] to get over the hump so networking from
[8:32] two angles networking from uh inside out
[8:36] and from outside in okay so let's start
[8:38] with inside out you're looking for jobs
[8:42] and you see job listings so you're
[8:44] starting there this is the inside out so
[8:46] you are how do you work backwards from a
[8:49] listing to where you can use your
[8:51] network the obvious answer is what first
[8:53] deegree connections do I have people who
[8:55] work there um that's and that's that a
[8:59] non-obvious one is what are the second
[9:01] degree connections LinkedIn when you do
[9:04] a company search will you can pretty
[9:06] easily see what are your second degree
[9:10] people connections basically who do you
[9:13] know that knows somebody that works
[9:15] there having and sending and working
[9:18] that angle basically asking the person
[9:21] you know to introduce you to the person
[9:24] at that company is easy in terms of
[9:28] effort and the time it takes but
[9:30] difficult in coming overcoming the
[9:31] resistance like ah is this person going
[9:34] to want to help
[9:35] me I think if someone reaches out to you
[9:39] for help even if you knew them 10 years
[9:41] ago and haven't spoken since if they
[9:43] thought highly of you at the time they
[9:44] will still think highly of you and in
[9:46] general people want to help so that that
[9:49] that's that's maybe that's all the
[9:51] encouragement you will need to send
[9:52] those messages in the future to ask
[9:55] someone you know to introduce you to
[9:56] someone you don't know and then what
[9:58] that ation look like um hi you know
[10:02] we've never met before I saw this job
[10:04] listing I I'm not I I would just like to
[10:07] know I'm interested I may apply for this
[10:08] job what's it like to work there what's
[10:10] the best part about working there what's
[10:11] the worst part about working there do
[10:13] you happen to work um anywhere close to
[10:17] where you know anything about the team
[10:19] that is hiring and then that's it and
[10:21] you hope and you just you know you
[10:23] you've made a connection it would be
[10:25] nice if they said um and let me tell you
[10:27] they will volunteer I can refer you if
[10:29] you want but you I want you to you don't
[10:32] have to come from this place of um it is
[10:34] it might be difficult to come from this
[10:36] place of asking for a favor so I'm
[10:38] saying you don't even have to ask for a
[10:39] favor what's it like to work there
[10:41] thanks for this information I really
[10:43] appreciate it um by the way
[10:46] um uh you know if you're if you're
[10:49] comfortable um fast tracking my
[10:52] application that'd be great but if not
[10:54] no wor so this okay that's outside
[10:57] outside in and I before we get into
[10:58] there I'm curious I just want to pause s
[11:01] inside out we're starting by looking at
[11:02] the job and then looking for who we
[11:05] might be connected to there or if we
[11:08] know anyone who might be connected to
[11:09] anybody and asking for introductions I'm
[11:11] just recapping and then yes not leading
[11:15] with hey can you get me a job more
[11:16] leading with hey can you just tell me a
[11:18] little bit about it can you tell me
[11:20] connecting with the person and then most
[11:23] likely once you do that and they find
[11:24] you're looking for work they'll submit a
[11:25] warm referral is that
[11:27] right and how effective is this compared
[11:30] to the resum optimization that you said
[11:33] and like you don't have to we don't have
[11:34] to cite literature here or anything it's
[11:36] just from a percentage if you were to
[11:38] get someone in the door how much effort
[11:40] would you say they put on networking and
[11:42] how much would that would impact their
[11:43] careers versus optimizing their resume
[11:46] in
[11:46] LinkedIn and applying you know spamming
[11:51] rums I think it's multipronged and you
[11:54] never know which is going to make the
[11:57] difference but if you can but networking
[12:00] is a lot more
[12:03] effective I say you never know what can
[12:05] make the difference because it might be
[12:07] you are the perfect candidate for a job
[12:08] and you don't know anybody there and you
[12:10] submit your resume and because you have
[12:12] a well-written resume you got the
[12:14] interview and and you're in so I don't
[12:15] want to say don't pay attention to it
[12:18] but in general optimizing your resume in
[12:21] LinkedIn is pretty easy and you should
[12:22] just do it and there's a bunch of free
[12:25] advice out there on how to do it uh
[12:27] networking is hard for those people but
[12:30] most times it is the most effective way
[12:32] to get a job sometimes without even
[12:35] having to go through a job yeah yeah I
[12:37] think that's what I'm seeing a lot too
[12:39] and I just want to Echo everything
[12:40] you're saying is spoton I can't tell you
[12:42] how many people I see who are saying
[12:44] that they're interested and finding work
[12:47] but then all they do is do the easy
[12:48] apply on LinkedIn and then when you
[12:50] start talking about
[12:51] networking there's nothing or I might be
[12:53] just spamming people can you send look
[12:55] at my resume and can you submit it right
[12:57] it's no connecting so um it's really
[13:00] helpful thinking from the right inside
[13:02] out tell me about outside in what's
[13:04] outside in
[13:06] yeah so outside in is where you start
[13:08] with your
[13:10] network letting people know that you're
[13:13] interested in finding your next
[13:17] opportunity and this takes a bit more
[13:20] usually a little more resistance to
[13:21] overcome um and and and but can be so
[13:26] effective and it's a a little more
[13:29] effort because you're really the just
[13:31] the number is greater usually usually
[13:33] usually there's there's hundreds of
[13:35] people your potential list so I just say
[13:37] get an Excel spreadsheet get a list
[13:39] going of people that you once knew or
[13:41] you knew and it's anybody who thought
[13:45] well of you that's it it's anybody you
[13:47] think you made a positive impression on
[13:49] doesn't have to be a close relationship
[13:51] uh it doesn't have to be someone who's
[13:53] hiring right now doesn't have to be
[13:54] someone who works at a company uh that
[13:57] that you want to work for
[13:59] and and the message
[14:01] is short and sweet text is better then
[14:04] email then LinkedIn how you know but
[14:08] whatever they're most likely to respond
[14:09] to hey it's been a while I I remember
[14:13] fondly of the time we X Y and Z fill in
[14:16] the blank something personal I wanted to
[14:19] let you know I'm on the I'm on the I'm
[14:22] seeking my next opportunity these are
[14:24] the kind of things that um I'm
[14:26] interested in the kind of things I'm
[14:28] good at this is I'm looking for a a new
[14:31] role where I can do ABC um if you know
[14:35] of anything let me know otherwise it'd
[14:36] be great to catch up you know be great
[14:39] if you're local you know have coffee um
[14:43] that hope you're well that's and that's
[14:45] that's really it there's a key thing I
[14:47] would ask actually the key bullet is
[14:50] that um in addition
[14:54] to if you know of any opportunities
[14:56] right after that should be if you know
[14:58] of any anybody that might know of other
[15:00] opportunities I'd appreciate a Nitro and
[15:02] that like is a power bar for your
[15:05] network it just exponentially extends
[15:07] your network you're reaching out to
[15:08] someone and now you're saying if you
[15:09] know of anybody else I should be talking
[15:11] to I would appreciate that connection
[15:14] so that that's into the nutshell it's
[15:17] hard it's it's easy and hard to do at
[15:19] the same time but you should be sending
[15:21] out these messages like five a day and
[15:24] it should get to the hundreds that
[15:26] you've sent them you know it's such a
[15:27] tripa it makes so much sense to me and
[15:29] I'm trying to remember like even just 10
[15:31] years ago when I was looking for work it
[15:34] was all in person I felt like there was
[15:36] stuff online but right like and what
[15:38] you're recommending is just this new
[15:39] digital age that a lot of people need to
[15:41] get used to that a lot of networking
[15:43] happens digitally now and we don't have
[15:45] as many inperson events so for example
[15:48] when I'd find my old jobs you know you
[15:49] kind of complain you drink a beer with
[15:51] someone after work and they're saying
[15:52] hey you know this other person I know is
[15:54] hiring I'd love to introduce you right
[15:56] that was much more natural and happened
[15:58] a lot 10 10 even five years ago before
[16:01] covid yes we're not seeing that as much
[16:02] anymore and it's now happening
[16:05] electronically so if you're especially
[16:07] say you know at least in my age range
[16:09] you know mid-30s mid 40s you you got to
[16:12] get used to this new phase is what
[16:14] you're saying right is you need to be
[16:16] comfortable reaching out to people that
[16:17] you used to know your friends family
[16:19] co-workers anyone that you left a
[16:21] positive impression on and then you're
[16:23] going to tell them that you're looking
[16:26] like you're looking hey I'm looking for
[16:28] some work to do you know anybody right
[16:30] and that's your outside in is am I
[16:32] saying that
[16:33] right yeah you're saying it right and I
[16:36] love the observation about there were
[16:38] just a lot more opportunities to have
[16:40] these same conversations in person uh uh
[16:44] a little bit ago I would I would also
[16:46] say the people you're likely to hang out
[16:48] with is a smaller group than anybody
[16:51] you've ever known and these probably not
[16:55] 5 years ago but now the market is is
[16:57] really tough it it'll take that extra
[17:00] effort you might have to reach into your
[17:02] deep Network whereas before your group
[17:05] uh that you might come across in person
[17:07] probably enough probably enough right
[17:09] but now there's a lot more competition
[17:12] uh hopefully by the time people hear
[17:14] this podcast uh the the cycle the
[17:16] pendulum has swung toward where it's an
[17:17] employee driven Market but right now
[17:19] it's an employer driven market so so um
[17:22] reaching out to your extended Network
[17:24] and getting comfortable with the digital
[17:26] thing is it's incumbent upon most job
[17:28] Seekers yeah it's interesting it's a new
[17:30] skill Flex say no these are already
[17:32] tools I haven't thought of this way so
[17:33] this has already been extremely helpful
[17:35] you're going to see how having someone
[17:36] like you and their Corner could be
[17:37] really valuable um from just trying to
[17:39] get in the door right and so is there
[17:42] anything else I'm missing it's like how
[17:44] does someone get in the door to to find
[17:48] to at least land the
[17:52] interviews there is a way there is
[17:57] um interview I do some work with the
[17:59] company interviewing.io
[18:01] and the uh founder alen learner had a
[18:04] great blog post she posted on LinkedIn
[18:07] and she posts on the I .io blog
[18:10] interviewing.io blog so if you Google it
[18:12] you will be able to find this she had a
[18:14] great tip for okay you don't know
[18:15] anybody you don't have any first or
[18:16] second degree connections but you want
[18:18] to email the hiring manager and it's a
[18:21] wonderful she she talks about
[18:23] third-party databases you can subscribe
[18:25] to say here's the job listing find me
[18:28] the hiring manager is get me their email
[18:31] address and it's really interesting
[18:33] there's useful data there I haven't
[18:35] tried it personally but I I do want to
[18:37] put this out there and I'm not obviously
[18:39] I'm not taking any any credit for it but
[18:41] if you're willing if there's a job
[18:43] you're just like this is the job for me
[18:45] I need to find a way to connect the
[18:46] hiring manager and my network or network
[18:48] of networks isn't cutting it there are
[18:50] third-party databases you can use um uh
[18:53] uh to help and there are good tips in
[18:55] that article for what to say in that
[18:57] email yeah that's a great that's a great
[18:58] tip I've seen even on LinkedIn sometimes
[19:00] they'll show the hiring manager and I
[19:01] can't tell you how many people I've
[19:03] talked to where I show them that and
[19:05] then I ask have you reached out to them
[19:08] if they and I like no no we just applied
[19:10] it's like you know who the person is
[19:12] just reach out like just talk talk to
[19:14] the hiring manager they're gonna they're
[19:16] gonna be the right people right so
[19:18] right and it's something psychological
[19:20] because I bet if you ask that same
[19:22] person should you reach out to the
[19:23] hiring manager they'll say yes like they
[19:25] they know people know um it's just hard
[19:28] we talk stop for that for a second
[19:30] before we talk about interviewing
[19:31] because I think that's a natural next
[19:32] segue is as a client someone's coming to
[19:36] you and they're
[19:37] saying hey what do I do and you tell
[19:40] them all the networking tips you tell
[19:42] them exactly what they need to do to
[19:43] land a an
[19:45] interview I'm guessing you're finding
[19:47] you're going to find out a lot of those
[19:48] people don't execute probably from some
[19:51] mental block right
[19:53] some yeah that mean yeah the the the
[19:56] people that I work yeah there's a and
[19:58] after they're not executing before they
[20:01] work with me if they if they're
[20:02] committed enough to show up and work
[20:04] with me that it it's not it's not
[20:07] difficult to overcome the resistance and
[20:08] they'll they'll what is that resistance
[20:10] and how do you get them over how do you
[20:11] get them over that
[20:12] resistance yeah yeah yeah
[20:17] so I think it's about goal setting
[20:21] because I think it's about making
[20:23] progress when you're not motivated to
[20:26] make that
[20:27] progress and and this is an environment
[20:31] and you know when you're in transition
[20:33] in your career this these are a t this
[20:35] is a time of highs and lows every day a
[20:39] lot of days will be all lows and it it
[20:43] it'll be and you're you know there
[20:44] you're accountable only to yourself
[20:46] there's no one hovering over you
[20:47] assigning you work and saying it's due
[20:49] in the next seven days so you're
[20:51] accountable only to yourself and
[20:53] demoralization is a is a high probity
[20:56] likely to be demoralized a good part of
[20:58] the time so I ask people what would what
[21:01] what are ways that you could work and
[21:03] make progress on the things you know you
[21:04] should be doing even when you're not in
[21:07] the mood to do it like what are way you
[21:09] can do it it's different for everybody
[21:12] um and and and common answers are I'm
[21:15] I'm just going to make a very specific
[21:17] set of tasks and I'm going to do some
[21:20] tasks each day so that when I wake up in
[21:23] the morning and I have these two hours
[21:25] to work from that I set aside um I I
[21:29] don't have to do any thinking I know
[21:30] it's send this email to this person send
[21:33] this LinkedIn to this person look on
[21:35] this job board and apply to 10 jobs it's
[21:38] about making low thinking concrete tests
[21:42] and holding yourself accountable to
[21:43] making some progress each day but the
[21:46] answer is different for everybody how
[21:47] can you make progress it is usually
[21:49] about time blocking it so that there's a
[21:51] start and a finish time and and it's
[21:54] about removing any ambiguity and having
[21:57] a list of to-dos that you just go
[21:59] through no matter what kind of me yeah
[22:01] that's great I like how you brought it
[22:02] to the behavioral because a lot of times
[22:03] when I talk to people they'll bring up
[22:06] some mental blocks of hey I just don't
[22:08] feel confident or there's some other
[22:10] aspect but the only way you get through
[22:12] that is the behavioral stuff right is
[22:14] hey you got to just hit the list you
[22:16] gotta get you got to build a confidence
[22:18] through your getting in the rests
[22:21] right AB yeah absolutely I I it would it
[22:25] would um I because I feel like I know
[22:27] where I know where job Seekers are
[22:30] coming from I've been there I'm I'm not
[22:32] going to change their mind and make
[22:34] searching for jobs a very you know happy
[22:36] world where I love doing it I wish I
[22:38] could do it fulltime you know that
[22:39] that's not going to happen so it is
[22:41] about how can we Mo move forward until
[22:43] we're in our next until we're we're in
[22:44] the dream job and then and then it's all
[22:48] um
[22:51] um I yeah I I don't know I don't know
[22:53] where I don't know I don't really have a
[22:54] nice button to put on that but like
[22:56] let's get through this job search
[22:57] transition phase and let's just do it
[22:59] and it'll be faster the the more quickly
[23:02] we can move through our Tod I like that
[23:03] I like that but just like hey the sooner
[23:05] we get to work here the sooner we'll be
[23:07] done with the process if you hate it
[23:09] then that just means you should work
[23:10] faster you need the job eventually right
[23:14] like you're trying to get from point A
[23:16] to point B this is the transition let's
[23:18] let's let's find a way to get through
[23:20] this transition and remind something one
[23:22] of my old bosses used to say where it's
[23:24] like if you're going to make me eat crap
[23:26] don't spoon food it to me you know like
[23:28] just me it all eat all in one bite so
[23:32] exactly right okay cool okay I may we
[23:35] already burden through time I wish we
[23:37] even had more maybe we'll talk more in
[23:38] detail sometime about if any questions
[23:40] come up from the audience but what let's
[23:43] go to interviewing okay they listen to
[23:45] you they actually executed they got over
[23:47] their mental blocks or whatever's
[23:48] blocking them they behaviorally
[23:49] executing they have a few interviews
[23:51] lined up now
[23:52] what yeah
[23:58] it's another perception change a lot of
[24:00] people think that they I don't see like
[24:03] a too much of a structure for this
[24:06] upcoming interview the recorder told me
[24:07] just who I'm meeting with and very vague
[24:10] things that we're talking about if
[24:11] anything um
[24:14] and I have no idea what they're going to
[24:16] ask and I go on Google and I see what
[24:18] are the top 100 job interview questions
[24:20] I'm like okay yeah but I I can prepare
[24:23] for those but I have no idea which
[24:25] they're going to ask and the the the
[24:27] mind I asked people to have or the thing
[24:30] I I remind them of no matter what the
[24:32] question you have a limited set of
[24:36] stories from your personal experience
[24:38] that you're going to talk about and it's
[24:40] not really limited like in in that you
[24:42] did something wrong it's just that we
[24:44] just have a finite of AC a finite set of
[24:46] accomplishments that we're proud of and
[24:48] we're going to talk about in the
[24:49] interview so I asked them to approach it
[24:51] from that perspective what are the
[24:55] experiences and accomplishments that I
[24:57] am really hoping the interviewer asks
[25:02] about let me take the time to prepare
[25:06] those story so that I can talk about
[25:08] them really effectively really concisely
[25:11] so I'm confi conveying great
[25:13] communication skills at the same time
[25:16] that I'm conveying my accomplishment let
[25:18] me polish those
[25:20] stories and then so this is what I ask
[25:23] people to focus on I I I give them a set
[25:25] of writing prompts um for instance a
[25:28] tell me about a time you delivered
[25:30] something with big impact overcoming
[25:31] hurdles tell me about a time you went
[25:33] deep into a problem that or a system
[25:36] that was just really complex it took
[25:37] some time to understand tell me about a
[25:39] time you did that and what was your
[25:40] approach tell me about a time you had a
[25:42] disagreement was that you know there's
[25:45] I'm not going to give them a 100
[25:46] possible job interview questions I'm
[25:48] going to give them the eight writing
[25:51] prompts that is going to give them a
[25:53] broad set of stories and help them
[25:54] remind them of the stories that they're
[25:56] just hoping they ask about and then no
[25:58] matter what question they're asking
[26:00] they're going to pull from this set of
[26:01] story if the stories are mey enough if
[26:04] the stories are and and and if the story
[26:08] is is Rich with data and Rich with
[26:10] actions you took and you can talk about
[26:12] the context in a way um that that
[26:16] communicates very quickly with the
[26:17] situation was to someone who wasn't
[26:19] there um and you can talk about your
[26:21] short and long-term results uh that is
[26:24] so so effective and when you have a set
[26:26] of meaty stores you're going interview
[26:29] no matter what the question is most
[26:31] likely you'll be able to talk about
[26:33] these stories not not verbatim as if you
[26:35] memorize but you'll be able to talk
[26:37] about the slice of each story the
[26:39] dimension of the story that the
[26:40] interviewer is asking about if he's
[26:42] talking about conflict you can pull from
[26:44] a story if he's talking about um
[26:46] delivering something big you might be
[26:48] able to talk about that same story but
[26:49] through a different dimension so you're
[26:51] still improvising you're but you're
[26:53] pulling from a set of stories that
[26:55] you've really like spent time thinking
[26:57] about how to tell effectively and then
[27:00] instead of improvising 100% of the
[27:02] interview you might get one question
[27:04] where you know none of your stories
[27:06] apply through your thinking in the
[27:07] moment but now that's only a small
[27:10] amount of time during the interview
[27:11] rather than your whole interview for
[27:13] people who just I think that's great
[27:14] feedback me being at Google and giving
[27:16] interviews I see that way too often
[27:18] where they go into like the star method
[27:20] I even hear people quote it out loud
[27:22] saying oh well I'll tell you the
[27:23] situation that happened and they quote
[27:25] something from their resume and there's
[27:27] no substance there's no I like what you
[27:29] said mey and we are such story based
[27:32] people if you can everyone has some kind
[27:35] of cool accomplishment they've done in
[27:36] their life if you can just name a few of
[27:38] them yes and they're slightly relevant
[27:40] to the question being asked that's going
[27:42] to be way better than then trying to
[27:45] come up with some formulaic inauthentic
[27:48] answer
[27:49] right yeah yes 100% yeah I I go a little
[27:54] deeper like I have I have my you know
[27:56] Star Plus way like I structure to it but
[28:00] the most the most important thing is
[28:02] have a mey story and it's not whether
[28:05] you're using start to tell it or not the
[28:07] the story is the important yeah I love
[28:09] it the story told effectively what would
[28:12] you say
[28:14] for sometimes sometimes people are going
[28:17] through the interview and it's clear
[28:19] that they don't have the experience for
[28:22] the role so let's say you're interview
[28:24] you're in the interview and you're
[28:25] getting some questions and you're
[28:28] realizing oh wait a second I don't have
[28:31] any of this
[28:32] background what is that what would you
[28:34] recommend to that person like in that
[28:39] interview oh to be honest like so you
[28:43] know you you don't want to trigger
[28:44] someone's BS detector know so um you
[28:48] want you want to be honest um um but
[28:52] there's there's there's different ways
[28:54] of saying I don't know I I like the yes
[28:56] and approach where you're saying
[28:59] you know this you know I I don't have
[29:00] experience that directly answers that
[29:02] but I can think of something similar do
[29:04] you want to hear a time where I did this
[29:06] so you're proposing an alternative often
[29:08] times the interviewer just is trying to
[29:10] find out the
[29:11] best your best accomplishments you know
[29:14] what give me some data to grade you on
[29:17] that often times I'm not trying to ask a
[29:18] gotta question where if you don't have
[29:20] direct experience of it's just a fail
[29:22] like it it might just be they would love
[29:25] for you to offer an alternative
[29:27] something in the similar doain anyway
[29:29] that would be nice if you can uh about
[29:31] about um uh what's another what's
[29:34] another Al alternative uh just just
[29:37] saying I don't I you know
[29:40] um I think we can pretty much offer an
[29:43] alternative I think that's the key but
[29:45] but be honest I like the honesty I
[29:46] because that happens to me I'll see it
[29:47] when I'm interviewing somebody and when
[29:49] they start bsing that that's so true
[29:52] it's something everyone talks about
[29:53] behind the scenes is like oh did your BS
[29:55] meter go off yeah it went off this guy
[29:57] is just just taking it or I other common
[30:00] tools that I I find I'm curious and
[30:02] maybe helpful for your practice is like
[30:04] deflecting when someone you ask a
[30:06] question and they say oh yeah I've done
[30:08] that by the way you have a nice guitar
[30:09] over there do you play guitar or you
[30:11] know them trying to change it you're
[30:12] okay buddy I I got to get where this is
[30:14] going so um so just being honest saying
[30:17] I don't know yeah I don't I'm sorry I
[30:19] don't have that experience but I like
[30:20] the offer but I I have something
[30:22] tangential I have something similar um K
[30:25] would this be helpful to you or would
[30:26] this help be because Point as an
[30:28] interviewer we're just trying to see
[30:29] what relevant experience you have right
[30:31] and it's okay like what what you said
[30:33] before is this is part of a process
[30:36] right so if this isn't the right job for
[30:37] you it's okay you're going through this
[30:38] process you'll find other
[30:40] ones yeah like like and as an
[30:42] interviewer from that perspective like
[30:44] sometime you know tell me about the time
[30:45] you built a SC a team from scratch you
[30:47] know you had to hire and plan a new
[30:50] team I'm I'm fine with an answer that
[30:53] says you I I just haven't had the
[30:55] opportunity to do that but let me tell
[30:56] you about a time I so if they don't even
[30:59] offer an alternative I'll say no yeah no
[31:01] problem how about a time you had to
[31:03] change the direction of an existing team
[31:05] you had to bring a team and
[31:07] completely uh priorities changed and now
[31:11] we're we're working on something
[31:12] different or a time that you implemented
[31:14] a reor tell me about that often that
[31:16] answers makes me just as happy um so I'm
[31:19] not trying to like play gotcha game and
[31:21] and I think it's important for job
[31:22] Seekers to know that most interviewers
[31:24] just try to find what are you what are
[31:26] your what what are you bringing to the
[31:27] table table and I'm going to judge you
[31:30] uh from a holistic picture there's not
[31:32] going to be one missing checkbox that
[31:35] yeah yeah most people want to give you
[31:36] the job once you're in the interview
[31:37] they don't they don't want to do a
[31:38] thousand interviews right so they're
[31:40] trying to help you yeah they're trying
[31:41] to help totally 100% yeah this is great
[31:43] so what's next so then they're going
[31:45] through the interview any other tips I I
[31:48] recommend so so yeah I think um having
[31:51] in a great um tough answer to tell me
[31:54] about yourself is another key thing uh
[31:58] um especially For Less structured
[31:59] interviewers that'll be the most common
[32:02] question you'll get tell me about
[32:03] yourself walk me through your resume why
[32:04] are we here today and and tips for that
[32:08] is um I I could just be really brief
[32:11] brief with this one but I I think
[32:13] reverse Chron chronological is important
[32:16] I think start with your most impressive
[32:17] and that usually is your most recent
[32:19] experience rather than oh when I went to
[32:21] school here and then early career this
[32:22] and midcareer this and now I think it
[32:24] start with oh yeah right now I I I most
[32:28] recently I I worked here and this
[32:29] impressive role and I accomplished these
[32:31] couple things before that I did this
[32:33] before that I did this in general I'm
[32:35] passionate about X wary and and the the
[32:38] the other tip I think it's important to
[32:40] turn it around um and even though it's a
[32:43] question is talking about yourself I
[32:44] think you should end with and why I am
[32:46] interested in this specific opportunity
[32:49] is I know these people and I've worked
[32:51] with them or I saw this in the job
[32:52] description or I'm familiar with this
[32:54] company and I know the the the kind of
[32:57] Chan challenges your fac or I saw this
[32:59] in job description and these challenges
[33:00] really spoke to me I this is why I'm
[33:04] interested in this particular
[33:05] opportunity and I if you have to I have
[33:08] a question for you about this like
[33:10] turning kind of ending with a question
[33:12] for them would be like the most polished
[33:14] thing in my opinion but that that that's
[33:17] a high level I think having a good
[33:18] answer to tell me about yourself would
[33:20] would really because you just blew my
[33:22] mind I never thought about that yeah
[33:25] well I blew your mind I mind think about
[33:28] the reverse chronological piece and then
[33:30] spinning it into a question that's
[33:32] that's something I've never done and
[33:34] that's a great call because it is gets a
[33:35] little long-winded no one wants to be
[33:37] like oh crap I got to listen to this
[33:38] guy's whole life story like you want to
[33:41] start with why is it relevant to them
[33:42] and it's starting with like here's what
[33:43] I'm doing now here's how what I've
[33:45] crushed and then ending you know
[33:48] brushing over the rest and then ending
[33:49] with here's why it's relevant to you
[33:51] this is what I know about the job and
[33:53] can you tell me more about it like
[33:54] giving an easy offer or an easy answer
[33:56] or softball that's just a solid that's a
[33:59] solid setup Larry I never heard I never
[34:01] heard that before that's really good
[34:03] well thank
[34:04] you yeah I mean it's often the first
[34:06] question you'll get asked uh when when
[34:08] you meet an interviewer and then so so
[34:10] it's first impression time your first
[34:12] impression shouldn't be um especially
[34:15] for experienced professionals it
[34:17] shouldn't be I went to the school my
[34:19] first job was first impression is I just
[34:22] accomplished this something big at this
[34:24] at this job like that that's what so
[34:26] that's I I think that what drove my
[34:28] thinking on that's awesome almost
[34:29] reminds me of like doing YouTube shorts
[34:31] and stuff it's like you got to grab the
[34:32] attention of that viewer yeah you got to
[34:34] get that attention of the viewer yeah no
[34:36] it's true it's true it's true like I I
[34:39] said I have a my Star Plus approach it's
[34:42] called H sale but that you know it's an
[34:44] acronym but H is headline like start
[34:46] with a headline like don't dive into
[34:48] well I was working at this company and
[34:50] then this happened and then we had this
[34:52] Challenge and then my role was this and
[34:54] this like that's all important but like
[34:56] start with let me back tell about a time
[34:59] um this it was the the company had the
[35:02] biggest priority no one figured out no
[35:03] one knew how we were going to accomplish
[35:05] it but I figured out a way let me tell
[35:06] you that story okay now you can go into
[35:09] I was at this role these are the teams I
[35:10] was working with you know so so first
[35:13] impression going on a dating date right
[35:14] it's like your dating profile you're not
[35:16] going to be like oh let me tell you
[35:17] about when all the problems I had with
[35:19] my mother and how she hated me when I
[35:21] was a boy and I had trouble like you
[35:23] know you're not going to start there
[35:24] you're going to start with like oh look
[35:25] at me when I was in the best shape of my
[35:27] life
[35:28] and and all my accomplishments right and
[35:30] so that's yeah it's like that that's
[35:32] that's a really cool way to look at it
[35:33] so then what's next and maybe we're
[35:35] running low on time so we're gonna
[35:36] probably have to do another session
[35:37] sometime if you're open to it but how do
[35:40] you close that's a question I get a lot
[35:42] too is now at the end they say do you
[35:44] have any questions for me sir or manam
[35:49] oh yeah what do you what do you
[35:50] recommend
[35:52] okay how much is this one minute we got
[35:54] we got we got a few minutes how much
[35:56] time
[35:58] okay okay okay but I might be able to
[36:00] even do it wom okay so
[36:03] questions during the interview should
[36:08] reveal information to you so you do want
[36:10] information you do want to ask questions
[36:11] where you're genuinely curious but they
[36:13] should convey your enthusiasm for the
[36:16] role you have very important questions
[36:19] no doubt about what's in it for you what
[36:21] are the benefits what's the career path
[36:23] how quickly I can I get promoted um uh
[36:28] you these types of questions do not ask
[36:31] these questions during the interview
[36:33] those questions come after you get the
[36:35] offer right now your job is to get the
[36:37] offer once you get the offer now you can
[36:39] ask for follow-up questions with the
[36:41] hiring manager or the recruiter and you
[36:43] ask your what's in it for me question so
[36:45] that's at the highest level what not to
[36:47] ask like it
[36:49] um so what what two ask questions that
[36:53] you're genuinely C curious about that
[36:55] would um also convey you enthusiasm for
[36:58] the role so examples if I were to join
[37:01] what what what what do you Hess I would
[37:03] accomplish in the first 30 days another
[37:06] question what's your favorite thing
[37:09] about working here another question
[37:11] which is kind of negative it's okay
[37:13] what's your least favorite thing about
[37:15] working here as long as that's followed
[37:17] as long as you first ask what's your
[37:18] favorite thing about working here and
[37:21] another another one is I noticed this
[37:25] from the job descriptions really really
[37:28] interesting could you tell me more about
[37:31] like I have a background in this area I
[37:32] can talk a lot but I'm really curious
[37:35] how it's applied in this company so it
[37:37] shows you
[37:39] your conveying your interest in the role
[37:42] I like it it makes perfect sense you're
[37:45] essentially saying hey let me I want to
[37:47] recap all of thisse chronologically go
[37:50] into go into it then do your meaty story
[37:54] and then don't end by asking how much
[37:56] are you going to pay me how much time I
[37:57] I get what are the benefits and instead
[38:00] with real genuine curiosity about the
[38:04] role showing
[38:06] enthusiasm and asking real
[38:10] questions yes I might have misunderstood
[38:13] your question I say the close for the
[38:14] tell me about yourself yes ask a take
[38:17] any of those examples questions not the
[38:20] what's your favorite part of working
[38:21] here but say I know if this from job
[38:22] description or I know this about the
[38:24] company or the company made a blog post
[38:26] tell me more so that is important to ask
[38:28] a question um I tried to give advice for
[38:31] at the end of an interview usually
[38:33] there's a couple minutes left over oh
[38:34] that's what I was maybe I Mis it do you
[38:37] have any questions you me that we're on
[38:39] the same on the same page then it's kind
[38:41] of the same advice either way it's kind
[38:42] same advice that's good and I I think
[38:44] it's helpful too not to ramble at the
[38:45] end like I've had interviews where then
[38:46] people just keep asking questions and
[38:48] you're trying to close it naturally and
[38:50] it's not natural like yeah asking real
[38:52] questions are useful right again to the
[38:54] BS meter yeah um we only got a few
[38:57] minutes left so I like to do just a
[38:59] rapid fire at the end with everybody
[39:01] just for a little bit of fun where I'm
[39:02] going to ask you just a few questions
[39:04] about yourself if you're comfortable and
[39:06] then ending with like a piece of words
[39:07] of wisdom and then if this was helpful
[39:09] to people we'd love to have you back on
[39:10] and maybe do a deeper dive into there
[39:12] sounds like a lot more we can talk about
[39:14] so I'm G to ask a few what's your
[39:16] favorite
[39:22] dessert uh
[39:24] um Ben and Jerry's ice cream
[39:27] specifically fish food man I haven't had
[39:29] that in a while that's so good that's a
[39:31] really good one oh man um okay what's
[39:34] your favorite book you read
[39:41] recently favorite book I read
[39:46] recently I read two and recently that
[39:50] stick in my mind and okay I'll just I'll
[39:53] just go the the engineering executives
[39:57] primer by will lson I've never heard of
[39:59] it that sounds
[40:01] fascinating yeah that's I it's it's
[40:03] pretty new um but it it it's kind of it
[40:09] it it's very eye openening like what is
[40:11] the job of an executive like CTO level
[40:15] what should you be doing when your whole
[40:16] background has been solving technical
[40:18] problems and then you've even had some
[40:20] senior level position so you you know
[40:23] how to lead people but what are the
[40:26] problems that you need to be concerned
[40:27] with when your partners are now other
[40:30] sea Lev people and people and you lead
[40:33] the engineering uh function it's F
[40:36] sounds that sounds perfect and perfect
[40:37] what you're doing in the Executive
[40:38] coaching world where that's so hard for
[40:39] technical happens in finance too on my
[40:42] side happens the technical side where
[40:44] okay they're really good technically but
[40:46] now they're not just leading people but
[40:48] they're managing other leaders and
[40:50] that's a a whole different skill set
[40:52] right and yeah having a coach like you
[40:55] is perfect for that okay I'll keep going
[40:57] my questions so what's your least
[40:59] favorite piece of advice that people
[41:02] give use the star method you see a
[41:05] little
[41:07] triggered that's it's not that there's
[41:10] anything I mean I do have a couple
[41:11] things wrong with the star method like
[41:13] the word task usually under sells quite
[41:15] a bit what you're actually accomplishing
[41:17] it's not you're you're not solving a big
[41:18] problem because you were assigned a task
[41:20] but um my larger part is usually people
[41:23] advice begins and ends with use of star
[41:26] method and I think it's just one of many
[41:29] pieces of advice to give but usually
[41:31] when people say use the star method
[41:33] they're like now you're done that's all
[41:34] you need to know so that's why it's my
[41:35] least favorite yeah makes perfect sense
[41:37] Mak that's really funny too um
[41:39] especially being the career coaching
[41:40] because that's what you see I can't tell
[41:41] you how many people I've heard or I've
[41:43] interviewed where I've seen people say
[41:44] well I'll use the star method here first
[41:46] the situation like whoa this is as a
[41:49] little this is a least authentic thing
[41:51] you could do you don't you sound like
[41:52] you sound like chat gbt right now right
[41:55] so okay I want to end with imagine now
[41:59] you're on the stage it's going to be
[42:00] your 10c or 30 second viral YouTube
[42:03] short and you want to give some really
[42:05] impactful advice you know your negative
[42:08] wisdom that you're going to sell to the
[42:11] world
[42:15] go no pressure thank God thank thank
[42:19] thank God there's some post post
[42:21] production and editing you could de here
[42:23] my God you did not tell me this question
[42:25] so so sorry I repeat the question please
[42:28] I can give advice to the world it's not
[42:30] about me it's what advice I give you
[42:32] know it could be about career coaching
[42:34] too it's just about what would what sits
[42:36] with you that you think people need to
[42:37] hear right now that would be
[42:44] valuable let's keep it in the theme I'm
[42:46] going to speak to the job Seekers of
[42:48] experience
[42:50] professional hang in there I've been
[42:53] where you're
[42:54] at I've been on the other side
[42:57] interviewing and
[43:00] still we're everyone is rooting for you
[43:02] no matter what side you're
[43:05] on it's not as adversarial as you think
[43:09] uh when you're ghosted it's nothing
[43:14] personal plug away every day there is
[43:18] there is an end to this and the end used
[43:21] to come in 30 days now it's taking 90
[43:25] days or a little longer
[43:27] but you'll find your dream job keep at
[43:29] it Larry that's awesome I'm going to
[43:30] close there and I hope to have you back
[43:31] on some other time this is great
[43:34] man dein thank you so much