From Immigrant Accountant to Tech CEO, and Why He Walked Away

I had a chip on my shoulder. I was like, you know what? I want to crack through that glass stealing, muster up the courage to to strike a conversation with someone that lived a very different life from me. >> Soioeconomic difference of like I had no access to those people. >> I've disregarded neglected my health for so many years. So I'm surprised that my body held up as long as it it did. I could get choked up actually saying this at all. >> Everyone, welcome to Ambition Aligned. I'm Devon Kum, CPA, MBA, exg Google in Deote and currently a CEO and CFO adviser and adviser to startups in the

Silicon Valley. Today we're talking to my good friend Jotham. From immigrant childhood to battling corporate norms, Jotham's story is proof that an underdog mentality can redefine your path. Join us as we uncover how to build a company from the ground up and his journey from immigrant to accountant to CEO, as well as a surprising reveal for his next chapter in his journey. Let's dive in. Hey Joe, really appreciate you coming on. It's uh it's a really a pleasure and I think our audience would be really interested in just hearing a little bit

about yourself. How would you describe your journey from where where you started to becoming a CEO um after becoming an accountant? >> Yeah, I first of all first off Dang, thanks for having me here. It be a pleasure to be on your your show here. And you know, I guess I have to first ask you a question like how far do you want me to go back like from the the uh initiation point of of the my career or you know further back than that? >> Further back. I want where do where do

you think your story starts? All right. Like how does how do you tell it in your head? >> All right. So, now that you're giving me permission to do that, I'm going to take it way back because there is and I'm going to try to be brief about this and concise, too. Um, because it does kind of tie in together. Um, so yeah, I think I mentioned a C during our my podcast recording, but uh my family and I immigrated from the Philippines when I was 8 years old. And so, growing up in my childhood, it was, you know, definitely not in the uh most eloquent

of neighborhoods, let's put it that way. Um, you know, obviously just trying to get up to speed on like the language, the culture and so on, uh, was challenging. Um, but add to that, you know, this this twist of of growing up in a, you know, community that wasn't as affluent. Uh, and you know, I think what that really highlighted for me and just I think you um I've shared this with other podcast spokes

is seeing our uh people work hard around us, fellow immigrants, my parents obviously and family. We wanted to make the most out of the opportunity despite the subpar circumstances, right? And so that's exactly what I set my heart to do. Uh and and so throughout school and college, I was one of those guys, Don, that work two jobs at a time at college um because I just needed to make it happen. One thing that I always felt I was

limited in um when I was going through school and college, you know, because I didn't have the great um a super great education. my my school in high school wasn't like super bad, but it wasn't like yeah top-notch either, but I always felt it would be very hard for me to break through kind of like the corporate scene and uh you know the corporate environment. In other words, you know, I thought I was destined for like a blue collar job, which is fine. Like you know, my family was been able to support

uh my family with um you know, very respectable and and high earning blue collar jobs. But for me, I wanted to break through um on on the corporate side. And you know, I kind of looked at myself and I was like, well, wait a minute, like these aren't the type of people that go on and you know, become CFOs or CEOs. uh and uh but you know in discovery and thankfully some of the schools that I went to had really great way to to help us explore different careers like I felt

accounting was one that kind of offered that that entry point to that world that I wanted to um you know set a career in and you know that's how kind of like the the fund in accounting started. So I mean I think that's kind of like the the inception point so to speak for for my accounting journey. >> And so how did so how did you get exposed to accounting as a I guess a few questions let me ask them in the right order. So when did you move here and

where did you move first? >> 1989 in San Francisco the year and the earthquake for some of you that >> that was a big one. Yeah that was a big earthquake. Yeah. >> I was what the heck is going on here? 1989 and it was San Francisco. >> Okay. And then here, so I want to recap and I want make sure I'm listening and understanding your story. You were part of the family came from the Philippines, right? >> And more working class growing up in

financial insecurity at the very least. and you ultimately were able to find this liberation or like you were kind of on the path of going to the general Filipino kind of jobs or the cultural jobs and you didn't accounting wasn't in the sphere, right? Education wasn't it there was no one to role model yourself off of in your local community. Is that a fair >> in fact I take it even a step further. I mean there was skepticism, right? I won't name who in my circle,

you know, wanted me to be successful and wanted to promote careers that were more realistic for me. Uh, but, you know, I I definitely wanted to do something different and I wanted to stretch myself a little bit more. And in fact, I stretching is probably not the right word. I think if I'm being honest with myself, Devon, I had a chip on my shoulder. I was like, you know what? I want to crack through that glass ceiling and and see if someone that you know comes with from my background and my neighborhood can uh you know can break

through that. And so yeah, I think it was a chip in my shoulder more than anything. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I respect that and I have similar like similar a similar experience that I don't think a lot of people will appreciate or understand unless they've been in it where like I didn't have any accountants or any professionals I knew in my life that I looked up to that seemed like they enjoyed their lives or I didn't even see it as a path until I went into college and I actually saw someone doing the job and enjoying it where then I realized wow this could actually this is a whole

future that I thought was closed out to me. I didn't think that was a potential. And it sounds like that was your experience in college or when did when did you learn that? When did you when did that open up to you and say, "Wow, I don't have to follow this mold. I have a different path that I can go down." >> Yeah. Remember this distinctly? And let me know if I'm going way too far down memory lane here. Take up so much time. Um, but first year of college, I had no idea what the difference was between accounting, finance, like operations and

marketing. Like I I knew, you know, I wanted a white collar job, wear a suit to work after graduation. Um but you know, as fate would have it, like accounting makes you take all these different courses. And I took my first accounting class. I was like, wait a minute, there's something symmetrical and like logical about this. And you know, it wasn't as intimidating or daunting as like doing presentations in front of everyone. you just had to understand business and understand numbers and this methodology of debits

and credits. Um so I think the starting point for me was that first accounting course. Then I kind of dug in a little further. Went to the career center. I was trying to get more information about um you know what what these careers look like and really just get more details about like what the nature of an accounting career uh does. And one of the recommendations actually by an adviser, I haven't told this story for so many years. I don't know if I've told this story ever. One of these career adviserss asked me

to just like knock on a door um like a CPA or an accountant and go in and ask if they could be interviewed and you know this buggeyed. How old was I? 18 or 19 years old knocking at a CPA's office. I was like, "Hey, um, can I spend like 20 minutes with you just to understand like what you do, what your lifestyle is?" And, you know, sure enough, this was out in Pleasant Hill. I remember um, California with the Bay Area. Uh, someone allowed

me to interview him and, you know, I got to learn more about the career, develop stronger interest, you know, from that and and others over time. And you know there there's more than a story but I think that was really what propelled me to to keep going with accounting. >> Well and that's such a trip isn't it? It's just you needed to see it. So many people actually just need to see an example and those who are in the culture they don't get that if you're outside of it it's so foreign. And it was even to me and it's not just a cultural

difference like from from our backgrounds. Um it's like a socioeconomic difference of like I had no access to those people and as soon as I saw someone successful that you could talk to about it, it opens up this whole career which is why education is so important, right? Like it does show you these different areas and just beyond education. It seems more like you're saying like apprenticeship or people taking mentees under their wing but also you being proactive to find those mentors.

And it's it's very true and it's uh scary too at the same time. So you I've learned how to develop like a more professional lingo over time, but back when I was 18 or 19 coming from the socioeconomic background that I did, I mean I was I was definitely rough around the edges, not only in the way I spoke, but in my appearance as well. And you know, for someone just well, for me to have the courage to go to an office and talk to someone in a suit was definitely um you

know, very intimidating. And um but I think that chip on that folder I mentioned earlier is what got me fired up to to actually go and and do that because yeah, you know, you I'm from a a similar background. you don't just go in knock on a door and um you know must up the courage to to strike a conversation with someone that lived a very different life from you. So um yeah, it was it was a lot uh it's easier said than done. Can

you mind if I I'm curious too because I heard it from a few people the chip on your shoulder. Was it that that someone told you that you couldn't do it or what was that chip that kind of stuck with you? >> 100%. and you know whether it was explicit in which in some cases it was um or implied just the and I guess you know this is one way for you to know how to like poke me if you ever need to devon tell me I can't do something I'll I'll figure out a way to to get it done um and you know

I don't know how I developed that it's probably just the way I'm wired oh similar I'm similar a doctor will tell me hey you're you don't have great knees or your foot's a little longer than the other don't run a marathon I'm like, I'm going to run a marathon. I don't get that. >> Um, yeah, let me prove you wrong. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Some There's a certain type of person that gets really poked by something like that. So, that's interesting. So, how does that turn into becoming a CEO like going that's a that's a huge there's so many people who become accountants and then start your

own company. Did that chip stay on your shoulder? Was that the driving factor or what what changed over the years? Gosh, I mean, I don't think I've also shared this in this with this lens ever as well, but yeah, I've kind of had these internal conversations about myself when I reflect on how I got to where I am. Um, but the chip on the shoulder kind of transformed from, you know, here's this kid from this background and environment that was told you can't, you know, go to

uh corporate America and, you know, wear a suit and run the job. Now when I landed in accounting and you know this Devon we're not like the um we're not regarded as we're regarded differently from say sales and other corporate functions right actually within even finance like accounting and FTNA you know there's accounting gives off a different underdog vibe >> and so I kind of carried that on and so you know when you hear and again some

sometimes implied sometimes and actually more explicit when you hear other corporate functions say, "Hey, just whip me up a spreadsheet and, you know, go to your fancy VLOOKUP formulas. No need for you to understand strategy." Like, that fired me up, too. So, yeah, I'll skip a few steps, but you know, of course, we I knew uh that part of the blocker for being able to do more strategic work were stupid spreadsheets that everyone was relying on me to produce. Uh so you know that's where I

developed the the inspiration to to automate and there's a lot more to that story but I think that's the that's the short word kind of bit. So it sounds like that proving you wrong kind of me mentality stayed throughout it like hey don't under don't underestimate me I can get this done even when you went to accounting and get you got your license then worked at a top firm you still realized that hey we're still the underdogs and you kept that like almost like Rocky if you ever watch the movie Rocky it's almost like

that like that momentum right is like hey I'm going to prove the world wrong I can still do this >> that's 100% true and you Unfortunately, I think the accounting industry still has that underground label and until we first like have to embrace and adopt technology and you know, truth be told, we accountants have not been as quick to that um over the years, but I think that that pace thankfully is like picking up now. Um but yeah, I think in short like

I think the accounting profession kind of still needs to prove itself that it can contribute more to an organization beyond crunching numbers. And thankfully there's more technologies out there that are helping us, you know, break through that. Yeah, it's something that always triggered it's triggered me and I not a big fan of the word triggered but it triggers me when like even at Google if you were in finance you got a higher pay rate than if you're in accounting and then that's all true in a lot of organizations where accountants get a

slightly lower pay rate than other finance functions even though a lot of those finance functions don't have the same certification requirements as a CP as CPA and it's the branding or like like said the underdog mentality of like you guys are just doing the spreadsheets you're just quoting the books like come Like there's so much more than that and it's there's some there's a branding issue with it accounting but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole. I'm really curious on how did you go and start your own like what what was the day was there a day where you're just like screw it I'm going to start my own company.

How did that start? >> Yeah. Um so I like to think that I applied very sound logic in getting to that decision. Um and I applied it very similarly actually early in my career. So um I was a KPMG back in 2003 around the time of Anron and I started getting asked by clients audit clients whe people like me should be on the other side and helping you know consult and get people ready for

companies ready for socks and so at that particular moment in time I was doing you know I'd sell pros and cons pros um you know there's this unique opportunity that I can you know capitalize on. Uh, two, I can always go back to a big four job if I needed to. Cons, obviously, there's less predictability and income from something so new. And so, I weighed the pros and cons and landed on uh making a really difficult move, like giving up a a really good big Ford job

that I worked really hard throughout my childhood to get to start my own practice. And it was kind of the same thing when it was time for me to like have the conviction to to move forward with automating and and software. Um, at that time I was leaving the coach consulting job that I uh and the practice that I went from and the predictability of the income and the really comfort of networking styles back then to doing this like very hardcore

Silicon Valley statsbased startup. with a lot of risk and you know of course just like a lot of founders had to take a big pay cut and so but I did the pros and cons I I have spreadsheets prove it >> I believe it just outweigh the cards >> well what what I always admire though is that so many people get into a good job and like you said they you develop the pros and cons like getting into big four is not easy

getting your CPA license is not easy not everyone makes it there. Moving up at the big four is not easy. And then they get stuck. They get like their lifestyle creeps up and then they kind of get stuck and they are not willing to take risks. And I see it so many people with my friends, you know, in their 40s, right? Like they're not fulfilled in their career. They want to take a risk, but they're too nervous when in actuality they have the most security they've ever had in their whole life. Like, hey, you have a bunch of money, you have a license, you have a career, you can go, this is the time you can go take risks. Like, what got you through

that? the fear because it's not easy. It's not like it's not a decision you're like, "Oh, pros and cons. Okay, there's a few more pros. I'm going for it." It's like there's an identity shift. There's there's a lot there, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it definitely does help though that it was still grounded on on some form of logic, which again is like the reason why >> accounting appeals to me so much, right? like there's still some there's some methodology involved in making really big life decisions. Um you know beyond

that I think you just have to have like and this is where it becomes like less and more squishy and less painful like I think you have to believe in your capabilities. Um and I know yeah this is not something accounting leaders say but I think it's important um that we develop our own convictions that we can do something that is hard to do uh because otherwise when you account to be skeptical about everything and you know as granted as you are on pros and cons

um you know without that passion that and that belief that you could succeed you I needed at to like push me over the edge. And yeah, I think it's it's worked in most moments in my life. >> Yeah. And I I you know, I'm not disparaging the pros and cons list at all. There's definitely that's how I I quit Google and I think everyone thought I was crazy when I quit Google and I was doing quite well over there to go do my

own thing and um work with PCG and it came down. I did the same thing, pros and cons. And I was like, "Hey, I think this makes sense logically. I have a logical fungation for." But then you also need the drive, right, of like the passion of, "Hey, I also am excited to do it." This is also something which is a pro, I guess. So, it goes down. I guess the logical formulations, you can't beat them. You always work. Um, what what has that journey been like for you though? Like, from all of the things you've done from consulting to big four accounting to being a CEO, what have you

enjoyed the most throughout this journey? Yeah. Um I mean I think just the growth and the learning and I think that comes handinhand with like trying to having that chip on your shoulder, right? Like in order for you to prove that you are more than what people believe in you, you have to accomplish things, right? And for yourself or for accomplishments that are visible to others. And I definitely take a lot of pride in what we built in Gapify kind of

uh developing the software and getting out to market the first to market type product in in across management building the team going through um you know VC fundraises several rounds successfully which is uh not something that's easy to do and for us to actually still exist at this point and and growing um you know I know statistically it's it's um uncommon. So I think taking stock of those accomplishments, it definitely

makes this worth it. And just like to watch myself kind of grow and learn new things beyond accounting, right? Running a company, partnering with different functions who have very different mentalities in in life. Um you know, getting to meet people like you. It's kind of just like opened up the world to me in ways that I don't think I I I even imagined um when I first developed that chip in my shoulder back in high school. Uh I think it's you know thanks to

accounting it's it's kind of made me a a more complete professional and person and you know I know you and I spoke as I was coming in I'm also going through a transition in life right now um where I am stepping away from um running gapify and you know obviously not least as I mentioned kind of prompted by by health reasons um but you I I think just like the decisions I made in life I shared

with you the pros and cons like there's you definitely some kind of logic grounded approach in making these very tight uh tough types of calls but I think in terms of like the passion that I talked about thereafter you just being able to figure out what's next in life and what I want to experience I have a feeling it's probably outside of accounting once I you know go through my my recovery process But, you know, it's an opportunity to continue to to grow and stretch and expand myself in,

yeah, ways I'm not quite sure yet, then. And so, yeah, you're getting this hot off the press. Um, but I'm just like thankful I'm in a position where, you know, I can I can make these decisions. I have, you know, options and opportunities that that I can explore. >> Yeah. And I I know there's this strange instinct where I want to say like, "Hey, I'm sorry to hear that's all one, but it's not. It sounds like there's an it's an adventure. It's like your next journey that you're going to go on and it sounds like it's well thought knowing your pros and cons. It's well thought

through that is the right decisions for you. So, I'm excited to see what that next step um of that journey is. I would would you mind sharing with everyone kind of like it sounds like there's so many ups of the business side but I haven't talked to enough CEOs on this like I know there's the challenges too and so how like could you share some of the big highs and lows of what being a CEO leadership has been like if you don't mind with everybody. Oh >> yeah, >> absolutely. I mean, the biggest highs is definitely partnering with, you know,

people within your team and your customers to just achieve things, right? In the same way that I was laser focused on accomplishing so many things throughout my career, when you can ban a group of people from diverse backgrounds and experiences and do something, and I know it sounds cheesy, implement an approval management software so someone doesn't have to work a weekend anymore. Yeah, obviously there's a lot of things in between implementing a software. Yeah, just just working together um and

and supporting people at the end of the day to do something great. Um yeah, again I know more on the squishy side, not non numeric side. Um but yeah, that's definitely something I've always taken stock of and am never underappreciated. Well, you created something. It's easy. Like there's I'll sorry to cut you off, but I one of my favorite quotes of all time is like there's no such thing as original thought, only original action.

And it is something to bring a whole group of people together around a thought that's probably not that original. Like everyone wants to automate the Rick rules, but to get everyone and to create that, there's something amazing. You put something out into the world that didn't exist before. And accounting is a bit like that. you're like what bringing order to chaos in a lot of ways but then to to create something out of all of that is quite an accomplishment and not like most people don't do that and yeah that's so it sounds like that act of creation co-creation with other people was just

huge for you right >> and to see it come to life steon and then to know that you know several years later customers are still enjoying the benefits of of that effort whether it's the product the implementation and so on I mean It's It's just special. But I was going to say um earlier that the kicker, the bonus, the icing on the cake. Oh man. And I could get choked up actually saying this. I'll try to say this in a plain way. As you're make as you're

partnering and um knocking down those accomplishments for you to see people around you, they'll grow their own skills. That was just another level. Like I remember starting with some of the leaders here at Gapify raw in different areas, but then they've not only learned new skills that have made them more effective professionals, but kind of goes back to them believing in themselves. And Devin, I think you and I were at um Giants game a few months ago. I ought to watch someone,

you know, really be themselves. And I I won't give any details because I don't want to give this person away. Um, but I just witnessed real time her develop into a more effective and polished and amazing professional and I saw it happen live and those are the moments that choke me up, Devon. But yeah, it's like it's akin to being a father or older brother or however you want to however you want to see it, but there is this growth >> element and the it's a testament to you. And I don't like I'm not trying to just

pass around praise, but the best thing a leader can do is build up other leaders. And for you to do that, like not everyone does that. There's a lot of toxic leaders out there that'll throw other people under the bus. for you to do that and recognize that and for to mean something shows what a standup person you are, what an impact you've left despite whatever you do next. >> Well, and yeah, selfishly not to defer, you know, but you know, I know going into it and I knew running Gapify as long as I did from the beginning that

that I wanted that experience, right? So, you know, there there's definitely something innately rewarding for me as well. and and being able to do that and you know this is where you know my my overgratefulness sometimes kicks in like thankful for the opportunity to be put in position to help people believe in themselves. Um but you know I know the second part to your question was you know what are the the downsides of of running a business and you know of course like not every

story is a success stories and you know we had to move on from people that um were underperforming and in some cases customers have moved on from us for you know is issues or mistakes that we've done and have learned from. So, you know, it definitely goes both ways. And I think you kind of in the, you know, standard accounting mindset and practical mindset that I have, like that's how life works, right? Like,

you're going to have the great and you're going to have the not so great. And you try to appreciate and first of all, learn from the not great and yeah, not make those types of mistakes again. Uh but when the good times come like just got to like touch it, grab it, enjoy it, feel it. Um and I'm being reflective in now because of you know this this shift and and in my my career but you know no better time to do a podcast, right?

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. No, and I I appreciate you being transparent and sharing like sharing some of these things you've learned because and maybe hopefully I hope it's something that you could look back on in the future and kind of reflect, you know, in 10 years and be like, "Hey, I did this podcast and where was I at at this pivotal moment?" So, um hopefully it's a cool like little treasure, you know, or archive. But what what if you don't want what was the big what's the big change or like what why why the change or like what's what's

going on? >> Yeah. Well, I don't mind you know sharing some context although I won't get into the full extent. >> Yeah. I'll only share what you're comfortable with issues. >> Yeah. >> Um yeah, I think yeah I would think my doctor assumes it properly. Just bad genes, bad luck. Um, you know, thankfully nothing along the lines of of life-threatening, but yeah, something that requires immediate attention. Um, and thankfully I've got the chance to course correct in in major areas. Um, but you know what? Like because of that

chip in my shoulder I mentioned to you, I've disregarded neglected my health for so many years. So I'm surprised that my body held up as long as it it did. And I know you you and I have seen accounting professionals. We're like so tunnel vision and probably you know for folks like you and me that come from the backgrounds that we did. Um I think it's just very easy for for us to to lose track of how important health is. Um, so you I'm going to really appreciate just

the opportunity and I'm thankful for this the ability to to go crazy on like recovery and like be very strategic and just like put a lot of time and effort into it. And at the same time, I still get to do some advisory and consulting in the industry. So I'm not going to be fully plugged away from Gapify and and the accounting space, too. So, I'm I'm very fortunate that, you know, this change comes with like some optimality.

>> Yeah. No, I'm glad you're taking care of your health and I think it's just an important thing. I I appreciate you sharing it because there's, you know, there's two types of people I've seen. I I I kind of hate saying that, but there's the types of people who watch these kind of things and then they're aspirational where it's like, hey, how do I do that? And they're kind of younger and they're excited. But there's also the type of people that I'd say kind of cut from our cloth or those people might become where they're so hooked on performing and being conscientious and having the chip on their shoulder. I've been there and you

meet these people, they wind up being, you know, the partners at big four, big four. They wind up being the CEOs of companies and health really takes a backseat. It's really tough to run a company or to be a top performer and also take care of your romantic life, your friendships, your health. And it's not sustainable for a lot of people, especially with how we've made technology nowadays where like I was at Google, there was times I'd take 3:00 a.m. phone calls and midnight phone calls and I'd sleep for 2 hours and get pings in between during quarter end and like and then I'd wonder I'd go to the

doctor be like, "Why am I having why am I having trouble sleeping?" you know, and and they'd be like, "Well, you're you're working 20 hours a day. How are you supposed to sleep?" And like, "Where are you supposed to sleep?" And I'm like, "Yeah, but I need to work." So, there's that dark side that really does exist. And maybe I don't know. I'm always challenging or trying to reflect on like how can we create a more sustainable life for our leaders, right? So, that they don't like they don't have to and and maybe and it's not always just the work environment. A lot of times like genetics, I have my off genetics. Everyone has things they have to take

care of, but how do you build a space to take care of those things >> 100%. And you know, I know this opens up a whole another topic or can of worms uh depending on how you look at it. But in answering that question of like, you know, how do we create a better path for for leaders to do all the amazing things that we want to do, but you allow ourselves to take care of ourselves? And I really do 100% believe that AI is part of that answer. And in fact, I would say that, you know, and you know, I know

kind of I'm transitioning out now, but in the last several quarters, um the intensity is always going to be there, but in terms of like how much I can get done is I I think, you know, definitely um helping against like the need to work 20our days um and you know, maybe it's like 18 or I think it's at least trending in the right direction and I think that as it further advances, I think that's got a good chance of of making things more

reasonable. >> Yeah, as long as we use it, right? As long as we don't just become super hyperductive. Like now we're all doing 10x and going crazy. But hopefully people I I've known it's improved my life. I all testament to it like that being able to polish and draft emails or automate certain aspects of my has cut down drastically on some of my hours and I get to focus on more high value work. So what what's next for you? Like what's what's the hyper recovery plan look like? Have you already thought it through or what

what's this next piece then? >> Well, you mentioned AI, right? And I have um no issues um being open about this. AI it sounds like you know similar with you. I I use it for the highest impact parts of my life and these obviously health is number one. So I'm not going to go to ChachiBT and ask for like a diagnosis based on you know how I feel. So that would just be uh negligent but

you know my condition without going into details. There's like so many different things going on. And so for like AI to kind of just collate all of that, all the different tests and results that I've um accumulated uh from this process, uh leveraging AI to be strategic about the recovery process to support it to support with that, direct me when I need to, you know, flag a doctor because certain pain levels and breach a certain threshold. um you know as I guess to answer your question as

far as what's next it's like leveraging AI to get myself organized to to um take on this multiaceted like health recovery um and you know I think the more I can just focus on that and you know thankfully we've got strong leaders at Gapify uh that will run the business it'll operate as normal in fact uh you know the growth trajectory is still the that we're targeting there for me to just like focus on that have the tools

now to uh to be more effective at it. Um you know, of course, like I can't treat my Hulk like a game, but there's a part of this that is like pretty exciting challenge for me too. Yeah, you're gifying and AI can do that really well. How are you using it? Like what are you are you just using a variety of chat bots and kind of are you doing something more advanced or building your own tools around this? about how do how does Joseum optimize AI so I could learn or maybe the viewers could learn what we could be doing differently.

>> Yeah, I'm a chat GPT guy. >> Okay, that's changed over time and I I evolved from like GPT then to Claude and then Gemini and then I'm back um Chach creating custom GPTs. Um, I think one thing that is interesting to me and I haven't fully adapted this yet, although I need kind of my doctors to play along with it, uh, you just giving them access to my custom GPTs and like for a dialogue to happen through my my agent

so to speak. um you know I don't know it's within their rules or where they can kind of um you know get updates from me or you know for me to ask updates of them but you know there's a way in which yeah I can sit in the middle um you know whether it's interpreting communicating you know that I'm still all trying to flesh out but I've kind of done the foundational work I've set up that custom GPT got I've loaded in all my yeah visit summary

like X-rays, MRIs, and so on. Um, you know, it's definitely helping me get it organized already, but I think there's like a level of collaboration that can be activated now that that baseline is is in place. >> Yeah, I'm so excited about that stuff. Like, that's where it seems like it sits too in my perspective, not just with health, but just something I was trying to play with or build a tool around was I'm trying to get in better shape. And so, like calorie counting is really annoying. If you ever done calorie counting, like you have to like and normally right now you have to like find

an app and enter in a table and find the food and take a picture and be like, "Man, it'd be so cool if you could talk to your phone >> and track your calories." You could do it with chatbt, but that it doesn't go into a table. And it's like, well, if you had it, it could become kind of like a coach or like a feedback mechanism to a coach if you like were able to talk to it, attract it all on a table, and then it gave you feedback. And that's kind of where like AI native is going. AI native products are going is you have this great intermediary where you then can get an expert summary and then you have

your experts apply judgment to it. Right. It sounds like that's kind of what you're building. That can be a whole business on the health side. So just be careful not starting a whole new business, you know, on this. >> Well, yeah. You probably know me enough now to to know that I can't help but sometimes think that way, right? Um but you touched on something that I think is also gets overlooked or maybe typically seen as more of a negative than a positive. Um and it's the the encouragement actually like chat sheet PT can can

provide you in my case as I'm updating it on you different pain levels and like successful completion of like some kind of PT session just to say hey you're on the right track like keep going that that cheerleading part I I appreciate and maybe you know not everyone um it resonates with everyone in that same way but you know when you're dealing with something complex, right? It's good. And I'm still human to to get some level of

encouragement from from these tools, you know, in addition to all the other amazing things that that he can do. >> Yeah. And that's a great thing for everyone to take away. I've seen it on a lot of like on podcasts I'll listen to is actually people are recommending, hey, if you don't have a good friend group, talk to chat GPT because it at least will encourage you to do good things. And it's something that's kind of it's sad that it's sad. It's exciting there's a tool there, but it's also a little sad to recognize there's a need there where people don't we're not being good enough friends to each other where

someone can send you a text and be like you have a friend who's going to be like, "Hey, great job. Let like keep going." There's most people don't have that person anymore. I don't know what it's technology or communities or whatever it is, but chat GBT does fill the hole. Um, but it's also a challenge to everyone else is like how can we all be more encouraging to others just like you said with tying up tying it going full circle with your growing your business. The best part of your business was the encouragement you provided to others as they and seeing them grow and evolve over time like how can we how can

we learn from chat GPT I guess on on that element right because it's something missing from humanity right now >> 100% and yeah this is a whole another episode on its episode but um yeah I think when used properly and it's capable today of doing so I I believe at least uh check BT can help you come more human. Um, and you know, it's not necessarily just like a reference or something that answers questions, but

you know, in my case, and it kind of ties into the the founder persona and story and Devon, it's you maybe this is the way I operate and unique to me, but being a CEO and founder, you're looked at as obviously the spokesperson of the company. to have it together. I have to show poise and you know not be rattled so easily despite you some of these things that are happening in my life. CHBT allows me to be here like,

you know, updated on concerns I have about the split tear I have on my bicep and you know without being thug right there's just so many examples where you know it's it's helped in my life and yeah I think people's first reaction or maybe assumption is that you know I'm going to check GBT to diagnose myself or find cures for for my stuff but I can do so much more beyond that yeah it really can't it's going to be it's going to be completely game changing and I like what

you said that the AI can help us be more human and to that element like I hope you know you know I know we've talked long enough now I've talked to this is the way we have communication now right like but we're so busy that you have to do a podcast or something but if you ever wanted some human encouragement you could always text me or anything and I'm more than happy to hear everything going on and that's something that everyone like hey maybe we take a playbook out of how these tools are interacting with us and learn how to be better friends and better colleagues to each other and it

gets silly. Yeah, I I forget I was talking to another CEO on a hike the other day and it's it kind of goes back to everything we understand spiritually. Like there's a spiritual element to life, business and spirituality and all this spiritual element of like what is kind of all the great do all the great teachers teach and then like well you seek truth and you love each other and you take care of each other and if you ground on that everything else falls in place and chat TV does a good job of loving in a in a strange way. It's like gives that kind

of loving and it also seeks truth. So in an element it's giving us this it's letting people reexplore the spiritual element of their life where they can go go and try to explore this stuff. Honestly it's very very strange but very powerful and maybe it's like maybe it's the next 80s or 70s revolution where people start getting more in touch with each other because of this tool. But yeah, Devin, I mean, I'm shaking my head here because it's clear that you and I like had a lot of similarities and yeah,

I definitely believe that. Um, and you know, I think in my decision making to, and gosh, I mean, I'm trying to figure out how to like condense this, so I'm not going too far off the the ledge here, but you mentioned like catchy PT can help us like love and you appreciate each other as as humans, but it also can help you define, create, reinforce your meaning, right? And so I had to go through that identity moment and meaning moment with this decision in in my life.

And no doubt like KGBT I didn't ask it to write my meaning of life. I collaborated with it like these are the principles and values that are important to me. It's kind of helped me take this decision from a top down perspective. Um, and yeah, I know that you and I are probably more on the the AI sandboy side, but I'm I mean I I joke about it, but I think there is just like incredible power um that people can think use today's form of AI and I think

we're too sometimes like nitpicky about and focused on hallucinations and trying to point it out and like excusing the technology alto together. But I mean, yeah, I'm making it very clear for me. It's made a a huge impact in my life and yeah, I'm grateful to you live in a times where this technology is available. >> Yeah, definitely. Would you mind sharing and you don't have to. I was just curious what is did you did you craft like a meaning of life for yourself or like what are your core values or something with it? I did something similar. So, I'd just be curious if

you're comfortable sharing that. >> Yeah. Well, one thing that's great about AI again is you can just throw a lot of stuff in there, right? You don't have to organize your thoughts. I you know I went from describing the core values I had growing up to where I am in life um like my goals throughout different points of my life and you know of course it started developing kind of like the trajectory of what it thinks is important to me and you know through several rounds of

iteration and never like a oneshot thing right like you interact you collaborate you refine you correct um but when you know how to do that with the AI you get something that is you know definitely more you than than them right uh so yeah in my case and you know I think this is a good thing to share too that I haven't like shared with anyone including my my family uh maybe I'm ringing this phase in my life then where experiences matter for me and accomplishments and I think

it's time for me to maybe not have that chip on my shoulder and just kind of like appreciate what's what's happening in including my health by the way and not taking it for granted. um you know there's a lot more in one's core values and and mission statement but you know that is one of the key things that chat GPT helped me I don't get to as a conclusion of where I want to be in life which is entering this phase where experiences and you know

being present um might be more critical for me especially for my health than than achieving the next big wow Oh man, it's amazing, right? It's amazing that it was it's such a great self-reflection tool and I've done it for similar and I've met other people who are using it for similar ways and yeah, it's I mean it's just going to be amazing to get more self-aware humans who are going to have more of an impact that matters like focusing on the things that matter to plug my show ambition align to align their ambitions right with their actual core values and

everything. Okay, I we're running close. You're a busy guy and I want you to I want to make sure we close strong. I have a few questions I ask everyone just for fun. Um, and then we'll close it out. But I appreciate you being on, Joe. So, first question, sweets or savory? >> Savory. >> Okay. What's your favorite sweet? >> Um, chocolate cream. >> Oh, okay. I love And I don't get a lot of cream pie people, but like a banana cream or chocolate cream pie is just so

good. What's your least favorite piece of advice that everyone dishes out? Oh, that's a tough one. Um, I mean, I think about the AI one specifically and just the over reliance on hallucination and accuracy, which we know is not like feasible with anything or any human. Um, and so I would advise people to like not be thwarted by that. um and to allow

themselves to to discover this this powerful new technology still. >> Yeah, I that's that's great. People do people are scared of hallucinations, but forget that people are full of crap, too. So, you know, we I found that it's hallucinate less than my friends lie, right? So, that's like a big um last one. What's one piece of advice from everything we talked about today that uh that you wish you said that you didn't? One piece of advice that I gave during

this episode that I wish I didn't. >> No, no, let me rephrase that. From everything in this episode, is there a piece of advice that you missed that you wish you said? >> Um, I got this advice and you know, this is like one of the the perks of being able to do Gapify for as long as I did. I got a chance to speak to Morgan Stanley's ex CEO, James Gorman, and be yourself. I mean, as simple as that is, like it's it's allowed me to be the

genuine person that I am, that I think has helped me make the right decisions for myself and also I think get the levels of collaboration that I've been able to been lucky to to have, whether it's customers, people on my team, and so on. So, be yourself. I know it's cliche, but I stand behind that 100%. >> Yeah. Well, I'm I'm with you that the hardest thing to do nowadays is to be authentic. There's so many ways that social media or technology or the

expectations of others make us wear masks. And it sounds like you and I have found that AI can help you take away the mask and help you rediscover who you really are. And you're going on this journey with your health now. and I'm wishing you the best and hoping we stay closely in touch and reach out anytime. I'm I'm supporting and encouraging you through that and it's a testament to you as a leader that you were able to build a place that you can leave and will still grow and that's what the best leaders in the world do and you did it and not and most people can't do it. So

hats off to you can learn from you and I I really appreciate you taking the time today my friend. >> It means a lot. Thanks for having me on. And of course,