How to Take Control of Your Career and Leadership Growth

no matter where you are right now if situation seem dire if you seem like stuck there is always always Way Forward and there are always opportunities the handcuffs get bigger over the years right you get paid more you get Equity it's really you have more to lose so figuring out what is right for you what do you need what do you want I want to encourage you to adopt an abundance mindset and always pleas ask yourself

where are the opportunities and you'll find them today I'm going to be working with Lam more who is an executive coach mentor and leadership development expert specializing in helping women in engineering and Tech advance in leadership roles she has this amazing background at software engineering and management and has transitioned into coaching overcoming very interesting and compelling events herself so please everyone thanks for watching and please welcome Lam more and Lam more love for you to introduce thought and thanks for

taking the time today hion yeah absolutely so first of all pleasure to be here H I think you did a pretty good kind of rundown so my background is uh in software development so I my entire career I was in software engineering I uh started as a developer and grew into management and along that grew also a family so I'm married I have four children and we moved also countries so along the way a transition like

locations H I used to live in the US up until 5 years ago and um what else so I grew a passion I guess for supporting women along my career because I was one of very few if not the only uh woman in you know different companies different teams and the more I grew in my career the less women I saw so I felt a sense of kind of like a

life mission I guess to to support other women to help other women grow and Excel and that's kind of what led me to what I'm doing today as you said I'm coaching I'm focusing on women and helping women in Tech grow their careers yeah that's that's really amazing so could you take me to that's a big transition like wow traveling I have a daughter myself four kids what that's that's a lot there and then managing a career while you're doing that going into Management in Tech

and then making this decision to wow I I feel a calling to actually help more women can you walk me through maybe what was that significant moment that you made that realization to live more maybe in accordance with your calling or your character yeah I think it wasn't overnight it wasn't something that happened overnight H first as I mentioned I mean it's part of my work right on my day-to-day work because of was H so passionate about women I try to

do I could in my job like with the influence I had to hire more women to help women except I mentored women pro bono you know for many years and um I was involved in in women e ogs like with the companies I worked at so so definitely I sense like a like a passion for that and uh what happened was that um when we decided to move back I live in Israel now so when we decided

to move back to Israel I knew that my life is going to change right I mean my kids will have to they they were back then like most of their life in the US so they're more American than Israeli and it was a big transition for them so there's going to be a lot of change in my life and uh one of the things that I realized was that I no longer wanted to continue with that same thing that you know I was doing and another thing is that I was working fully remote since 2016 and uh it was

preo so it wasn't that kind of a a thing here in Israel most companies prefer people coming to our office it kind of it it was a combination of things like I don't want to go back to an office I'm I'm fed up with corporate like done that been there like I want to do something different I'm already changing my life why not add another change oh wow um and I also you know and I also felt EV that if I don't do it now I will never do it

again because when you're are working and you're getting paid well it's really hard to change it's really least for me it was oh wow so it was that move am I reading that right when you had that move you realized if I go back to corporate it's going to be hard to let go of the golden handcuffs and exactly yeah and the handcuffs get bigger over the years right you get paid more you get Equity it's really you have more to lose

I would say um yeah so I felt like well if I'm not going to do it now I may not I I may never do it yeah you know that resonates so much with me as I found so many people in their careers as they go into it they just can't they they get stuck right they like oh when in five years when I have enough money I'll take start pursuing my passion but then they forget in 5 years oh now I now I'm making 200,000 a year now I'm making 300,000 a year well maybe maybe I'll wait another

5 years and then that quickly spirals into just going in retirement and then regret right oh maybe I missed out on what I was meant to do so brudos to you for taking that step and what is that looking like now so how long ago was that and what what does that look like now how many people are you helping and yeah so I mean I didn't know exactly what I'm going to do to be honest like I I knew that I'm going to leave everything a you and do something else so I started Consulting it first yeah so so five five years ago I started first

Consulting and and along the way I you know mentored and and I realized oh I want to actually pursue a coaching certification so I did that and today like I mainly coach not just women but in general people in leadership positions um and very fortunate to to be doing really what love H occasionally I do also workshops for companies on different topics like one of a very popular topic that I did a lot of

workshops last year was about negotiation persuasion which I feel like is a topic that no one teaches us especially people that like are in engineering like in technical roles who are not like sales people or anything like that um and anything related to leadership and leadership development and uh women ogs also run you know uh women e like I they bring me and I just facilitate several sessions ex and jous what in that situation what are you

finding the pattern like what's the most common pattern that you're seeing that you're helping people through right now yeah H so I think like so if I'm talking about women that I'm coaching a lot of that is about what do they allow themselves to even dream of and think that they are capable of versus reality so and and as people like it's not just for women but I see it more with women a lot of limitations that they put on

themselves on what is attainable for them and also waiting for permission rather than just do something that they want like for examp I'll give you an example like let's say you're a woman you're working in I don't know you're an engineering manager and you want to grow into a director role and there is no like specific opportunity right now for a director role and uh you know you just work and you're frustrated because like oh there

are not not opportunities and I cannot do that and you know whatever and we work together on figuring out what ways they can actually start growing themselves even within the company without actually getting a title and I Know It kind of sound weird but there are always opportunities to do more there are always opportunities to do different different things H and also about like being transparent with the company about what

are their career aspirations what they want to do maybe being less nice and and more kind of you know talking with their manager about hey how am I going to grow and women a lot of time we want to pleased we want to be nice so oh it's not going to be comfortable for my manager if I'm going to talk with him about my aspirations to become a director because maybe he doesn't have any opportunity to offer me right now so less about kind of asking for permission and being nice and more about like oh

that's what I want and I'm going to take some proactive things to do maybe maybe finding some problems to solve that they can really make an impact and also like having proactive career discussions yeah that sounds so amazing and challenging I just so many things are firing off so uh first off I I respect that a lot because I came from a mom who is mainly like pretty much a single mom most of my my life and I saw her hit those boundaries of mix mixing

that desire for compassion and agreeableness to confronting social and cultural boundaries right like hey I just want to help I'm I'm going to be here I don't want to cost too much I sve the pot too much and like you said I've seen it a lot where a lot of where right accept is being disagreeable right and being able to not not be rude but be able to put yourself forward and so um respect there a lot a lot of the women I've worked with in my career the most impressive woman I've worked I've seen them navigate that line I know personally that they've had some

struggles with that like how do they put themselves before other people so um what what do you do in that situation what are some techniques or um do you take it from your personal life or where are you getting this from that you were able to accomplish it because I'm I'm bringing this I want to tie it into your story you even have it publicly you you applied for a leadership role when you're eight months pregnant which is that's really bold and Really Brave and has a lot of Courage so I'm just curious if you're pulling this for your professional personal thank you I wasn't

that bold to be honest I mean husband the one my husband was the one that actually encouraged me I didn't even think it's possible I thought like who is going to even take me seriously but I mean I think to to your question Deon it's based on my experience but usually what I try to do when I'm coaching is not too much rely on what I did rather than like hey those are experiences that I have and I know that just doing a good job and waiting for someone to give you

the permission in most case it doesn't work and I've seen that I've seen like how I behaved in a way that sabotaged my career and others around me mostly men like they were bold like they were not afraid to ask for for more money for a promotion for leadership R and and they got it so so it's part of it is like from experience and I know that you know what works and what doesn't but a lot of that is about realizing where this woman is at trying to open her mind but then

finding what what is right for her because you I always kind of you know try to get everyone that I coach out of their comfort zone in the way that works for them that is right for them so for example if I want to be bold and I want to ask my boss for something okay like in my case right I I actually approach someone who doesn't even know me and hey here I am pregnant like take me I don't

have any engineering management positions like this is scary I was to be honest with you but but you know maybe a I think actually I had a client like a while back she was afraid to ask for a day off now now that sounds to me if I'm looking it from my own eyes like that's ridiculous like you have days you should take a off off it's pretty simple but I'm trying really to put as side and say okay this

woman is struggling with setting boundaries is struggling to to H find time for herself so the stretch for her would be to ask a day off does it make sense Deon meet people where they are right sometimes it's even asking for a day off exactly exactly so for some for one person it would be I I need to be brave enough to ask for a Dayal cuz I feel uncomfortable asking for a day off because what it

means I'm not good enough I'm not dedicated enough whatever for another person it would be hey I go to my manager and say I think that I'm underpaid I think I'm contributing in that way and my salary doesn't really reflect that and I I need your help to help me kind of close that gap for example for another person that may be I really feel like I can give more and I can

contribute more and this is what I aspire to do and I want us to work together towards building a plan for that and getting into a director a VP whatever that may be see what I mean it it depends on the person what is important for them where they're at and what is like a stretch but that's not going to that's not going to terrify them or break them because we don't want to break people right because think about it if you're I'll give you an analogy like let's say you want to train for a

marathon okay and right now you barely Run 5K so you have to stretch yourself but you have to stretch yourself to the level that feels comfortable if you are a runner and you run regularly and you run 10ks maybe half marathons then okay training for a marathon may look different for you so a stretch should be really based on where you're at and what you can accommodate without sabotaging because sometimes you know when we do

something that we are that really kind of shakes us that can also hurt us and that sounds like a really upline it doesn't work yeah that's a really tight line to walk right to stretch yourself and then yeah had to know capacity and um I'm curious you it's so interesting you get so many there's so many books on these topics but what you're suggesting here is so specific and customized to what the person is actually experiencing and so I'm curious has anyone come to you with a like they got bad advice or what would you say is

bad advice when someone comes up or something generic that they may be getting advice on that youve heard and you have coach people out of yeah so I would say first of all about books I love books read read listen to podcast this is wonderful but the thing is there's one thing about reading and consuming information whatever you know it would be versus something that is coaching like that is personalized to you and what you need so first of all that's kind of the difference right I mean it it doesn't

contradict each other I I I guess the advices that people give a lot of times come from their own personal perspective and I'll give you an example first on a personal one and one for a client so personally when I moved to the US I moved to Denver I knew no one there it was a relocation for my husband company okay we moved with very small kids and I left my job in Israel and I wanted to find a job in Engineering Management cuz that's what I

was I was relatively Junior manager back then and it was D it was so hard to find a job like I was on a dependent Visa no one knew this kind of Visa no one knew me it was hard okay now as I was struggling and I was like what better days worse days people around me like family friends they told me you more you know why don't you just go take a software development role and then kind of build yourself

up and I decided not to take that advice I I kind of appreciated that people were with good intention well that's not what I want I want to continue my leadership journey and eventually you know I just pursued on what I wanted and I got my first management job and it wasn't necessarily in the company that I wanted the most or in the technology that I wanted the most and and again people told me oh what is this company what do they do are they successful is it interesting like so I had to kind of

sometimes tune out those voices and those opinion is and kind of listen to my own voice and what I wanted so this is one example and another example like I had a client that is debating between different career choices okay for her eventally she's aspiring to become like a VP or C VP of engineering a c of roles and now now she's on a junction that she need to choose between like two options one is more in the technical side still kind of about technical leadership and

one is more man like like more leadership side less technical but kind of being responsible for more people and more projects and people her like oh you should take this like more of a management side but what she actually wants based on what I sense is the other thing so I didn't tell her what to choose but I just told her you should first of all listen to everyone but then really listen to your own voice and figuring out where do you feel like it's going to

be interesting for you you're going to be passionate about it you're going to do what makes you feel good and you're going to grow and there is not only one way to get to where you want so I guess what I'm kind of in a long answer that to your question is like people give advice that maybe is good for them or they think is good but it may not necessarily be good for you so powerful I think that's so important for everyone to hear right I I I thought you know I'm at CPA and I

can't tell you when I was going through CPA for with how many people like d day until you make partner or say until you make senior manager but they were all burners the theor managers they're going to tell you what work for them right but yes I hear it's such great advice so be careful on if the advice is actually resonates with your authen like you authentically and do you have to do some of the self-work there and that's where you come in right is you're not pushing an agenda you're not giving any advice um maybe you'll give advice if asked or if you bring this to suggestion but it's

more like figuring out what that person really wants and their passions and their desires and how they can get that right is that am I hearing that right yeah I try to refrain from giving advice but do but take into account I mean it's not black or white like as a coach we're not there to give advice as we're not there I'm not there to tell you what to do um but sometimes people are lost and they need a perspective so they ask me some questions and I try to help answer them the best I can but I would really I'm I'm really trying to refrain from

telling someone what to do and like especially when they need to make decisions that are really critical for them and important and will maybe impact their next year or two it's not my place even if I think and my personal opinion doesn't matter also cuz it's about them it's not about what I think it's about what is good for them so how how do you help someone through that so it someone's stuck I say you have um someone who come in who's Stu is trying

to figure out what to do next in their career how do you help them work through that self work or what steps do they need to take yeah so we try to work on different angles like first of all I mean what do they like doing what do they enjoy doing that would be cool right to do a job you like yeah yeah but it doesn't have to be the thing is that at least I'll tell you I was conditioned to to think when I grew up H that a job is like is there to

provide for your family like if you like it great that's an added bonus you don't have to enjoy what you're doing but I I don't think that's that's how it should be it should be like it's not always 100% right we don't enjoy everything we do but you should be on a place where you feel like you're actually doing something that is enjoyable otherwise what's the purpose like St and and do something you hate so at least kind of try to think about okay what what do you and even reflect on

like what what have you done so far what did you enjoy the most like I had a woman that was in QA okay and and she wasn't sure what to do next and I fed up with QA I don't want to do QA so we try to reflect back what do you like doing on what aspect then you know we found out that actually based after we we talked for sessions like what she was liking the most is kind of kind of leans more to a Devo of Automation and like things like

that and then I said well have you thought about that like what are you telling me a lot of the things that you you like doing and you did also took initiative it's kind of sounding to me a lot like devops what do you think and and then I I just open it was like I opened a box for her like oh my God I haven't thought about it so she started and I okay go explore what is the devops do we like it maybe do so you see what I mean so a lot of that is like trying to open your mind to

even a possibility that exists to you to look at what you like and also a lot of times you have to think maybe a bit a little bit long term and look at what are some Ro Role Models you look up to like for example I knew that I wanted to become a manager when I was a very Junior engineer and I mean not always it was super clear but but I can tell you that I have a manager one of my managers that I really aspire to become like him I really respected him I appreciated him I

saw what he was doing said wow I want to be like him when I grow up so sometimes it's about having a role model like you said like if you look at other you know in your in your industry like Partners or whatever I mean you look at them and said maybe that's not what I want that works so what do you want maybe try to look at oh try to look of different people and what they do and see what resonates with you what what feels like something that you would like to do and maybe it's not in the near term

maybe it's something that you need to build towards and sometimes that can help you also figure out oh if I want to go and eventually become a manager and now I'm just starting my career okay I'm I'm just an engineer what do I what do I need to do in order to build those skills maybe I need to take on myself more kind of a h task that are requiring more communication with other teams more working with different people so see what I mean if it makes sense no I mean that's all pop to your golden advice and

not easy right it's like follow your passions do things you like and that you're good at make sure that you're leaning into that figure out what you want I can't tell you how many people I meet and when I start talking to them I ask them what do you want and the response actually I don't know I have't thought about what I want to know for a long time I'm just trying to make money and and that that output and I I really like what you said there about um finding a role model that you actually want a model after that can help people find what they want and then even the bridging a lot of people I've seen come

to me and say I really want to become a leader in this in this space but then they don't have the they need a stepping stone like oh maybe you need to get this experience or certification so that's all amazing amazing advice and that makes sense and but you got to figure out where they're at go to go back to your earlier point right yeah and and if you aspire to become someone I don't know in the future maybe you are like a manager and you want to become a CTO okay and and there is a huge gap from where you're at then talk to people talk to people may maybe reach out to a few people and and

try to get an understanding from them okay what have they done what worked for them get get a broader perspective so you can try to figure out you know what they do and then choose what what makes sense for you and so so with that what is what's been one of the lessons either personally or that you've seen someone experience through your coaching practice I mean for me the toughest lesson was that

um I just uh thought that I need to do a good job and that's it and I learned a hard way that it doesn't work so I saw people around me like as I said like being promoted and I was stuck so I I learned the hard way that uh you always need to be your your Advocate right to advocate for yourself and to to know what you want to be very proactive around it and to strive for that and and work with you know a

company or you know whatever to to advance yourself and when at points in my career when I realized that that's what I need to do it happened right I became a manager we moved to the US I continue being a manager then I wanted to be a director that intentionality and being super focused about that and worked for me and it also worked for my client so don't wait for someone to hand you something just figure out what you want and and start working towards that and

get people along the way to help you whether it's a manager HR mentors sponsors allies whatever you need I love that yeah Brew yourself in your character figure out the people around you who can support you and then going to strive for a calling or making sure you the capacity to reach that calling I think that's amazing so how do you how do you get someone to ship that mindset that's I feel like that's such a countercultural mindset um hey I can't tell you like hey work here for four four years and then you'll get a promotion and then you move up to the next rank but then people realize they

get disillusioned they get in there and to your point and I'm sorry I'm empathetic that really is horror when you're in there and you work the years and you do everything right and then you realize there's no opportunity and you feel like you've wasted a bunch of time and now you don't know where to go next because there's no Playbook how do you get people to realize that mindset that you're talking about from hey you got to take agency and be intentional yourself rather than relying on some corporate formula yeah uh it depends on the person

I mean it's not as you said it's not always easy for people to change the way they think I try a lot to challenge them to challenge them about like let's say someone feels stuck okay they feel like they have no opportunity so I try to challenge them okay let's assume you're working you know for four years and there is doesn't seem to be an opportunity for you what are the opportunities that you have for doing something that you've never done to

bring value to make a difference to solve a problem maybe no one is solving because typically in most companies there is more work I mean at least all the companies I work that there is more work than people leadership is always needed leaders are always needed and leader doesn't mean to be like to have a specific title but there are always problems to solve so I'm encouraging people to try to think differently like I ask them questions like okay you're you're saying you're

stuck you're saying there is no open role okay that's okay I'm not arguing with that but what else can you do what what what will make a difference and will maybe stretch you a little bit to do something you have never done before and when I start asking them this questions maybe they don't know so okay maybe you can try to think about it a little bit and figure out maybe ask your manager what are they struggling with to to think outside the box of like

what what opportunities you have within the company and if you don't feel like there is any opportunity you know where you're at maybe maybe this is time to think about whether you want to stay there or not check and and and sometimes you know when I work with people sometimes they realize that actually well maybe they're at the end of the rad at a specific place and that's okay it happens sometimes right I mean not from bad intentions or for bad people I mean it just happens could be that they're in

the end of the Rope at a specific place and they realize it's it's about to take a bold step forward and move and it's really hard right I mean it's really hard for people to make that a lot of times to make that decision that well maybe it's time for me to move on and uh do something else or work for a different company so I need to step out of my comfort zone I need to start maybe reaching out to people I need to interview whatever and um that's usually a tough decision for people to

make based on what I've seen at Le especially with women yeah it seems so powerful right so I'm hearing like I imagine you know the donkey with visor on or the horse with visor on and you're really trying to take them off and say like listen there's a whole world out there and maybe you're surrounding yourself with people who are in this little box that you're trying to open it up um and that could be really jarring for people like okay now you can see but it's scary to go off the off the right the Tron hat it's scary I absolutely agree with you it's scary even if you decide to stay in the same company and

there are opportunities for you to do something that maybe is not written in your job description right but can really help you develop some skills it's scary because like oh what if someone is going to tell me you know no what if someone is going to be wondering why I'm doing that so yeah it's scary absolutely yeah having that Clarity but at least you kind of realize that go ahead go ahead you me but at least you realize you have a choice at least you realize you have a choice because if you think like there

is no way I'm stuck then you don't have any choice but if you realize well I have choices I just need to figure out what choice do I make then it's a different question yeah like not making a choice is still the choice right like deciding to stay is still a choice right that's still a choice yeah I'm curious and it's okay if you don't want to go in this path I'm just curious how do you balance those career amb Ambitions career Ambitions with the personal and family Ambitions especially

like me I just so to to relate for a little bit like I wanted I'm very involved in my daughter's life and it's been on the other side of it it's been an interesting Dynamic for my wife and I like encouraging her to go to her career but then also making sure that I have the time to do like bedtime at home and it's tough for me to talk to other men about yeah hey I can't take a 600 p.m. meeting I want to do bedtime tonight it's a like it's an interesting cultural Dynamic and there's sacrifices there to set those boundaries up and you have a unique perspective of I mean it's an amazing journey right going through these Tech leadership also

being a mom and raising such an amazing like amazing large family and coaching and developing others to the process yeah I mean this is a valid question um that I think there is no one answer I think you need to figure out what is right for you and unapologetically do it so and I'll tell you why so for women a lot of times there is some pressure because Society expect us to do great to be great moms to take care of the kids you know to do a lot of things and you know I chose I

made a lot of sacrifices in my career H because when I started my career I mean working from home was not a thing like you couldn't work from home it wasn't possible years ago yeah but think about it even before that and and it's like for years I mean I I came home like not before 6:30 p.m. not before even sometimes later and yeah I didn't I didn't pick up my kids from my take her and that was a choice I made and I knew that I'm making that choice

but I made that choice because I felt that that was the right thing for my career and yeah Society may look and I was like to be honest I was probably one of the only moms if not the only that didn't come to daycare to pick up the kids at 4: 4:30 p.m. so you you have to really figure out what's right for you so what was right for me may not necessarily be right for you or for someone else so figuring out what is right for you what

do you need what do you want and uh how how can that work does it make sense yeah it goes back to that authenticity or figuring what you really want and I think it's um and not what others expect from you yeah and yeah it's so easy to go into that societal expectation like for me like oh Devon wants to leave early to go take care of his daughter like why does he want to stay stale that might be more important to me while my wife like she she FS that expectation sometimes she'll

drop off my daughter at 8 um in the morning and then none of the other moms are doing that and she'll like why are why is she that person it's like well your career is important and Evelyn they still a great mom it doesn't change any aspect about that stop thinking about when other people think about you and just make sure you're living in accordance with your values and character right so that's a huge huge great message yeah yeah and I'll tell you something I mean h for years when my kids were very little I don't know how how old is your uh uh your daughter I mean when my kids

were little I mean I literally have almost zero time to myself it was really difficult like I was either working or a or being a mom a wife housekeeper you name it like like literally like it was all about work work at home like kids it was hard and uh and you know I don't know if I could

do things differently but I knew that those years eventually will pass and things will get easier I try to hire help as much as I could but some things you cannot Outsource right you cannot Outsource someone to be with your kids to to read a bed time story or you know whatever so and those years pass and then they grow up so H but I would say try to find some time for yourself even if it's

just few minutes a day just for you so you can kind of take care of yourself which I haven't done for years so I'm kind of looking back and I wish I you know at some point in my uh I remember that I really wanted to work out and I tried several times to work out very very early in the morning unfortunately I'm not a morning person so it didn't sustain and then I remember one day I realized okay I am going to schedule

like classes in the evenings like twice a week I'm going to Pilates no matter what doesn't matter and kind of I set that time for myself and my husband my kids they knew I'm not at home and I put myself first smart at the beginning I felt guilt I'm not a good mom I'm leaving my kids at home cuz I'm going to padus I guess I guess like you need to take care of yourself as well not

just home kids work well that's so powerful right you and that's very very important is you can't take care of others unless you take care of yourself right and you can't save others unless yourself are saved so I appreciate I when the time of running out fast I think I could talk to you forever so I know you got to go maybe I can ask a few quick question questions to make sure we land This Plane properly and I hope yeah maybe we do this again sometime this is really fun I I love getting to know you so what is what are you trying to do in

2025 what's your goals for 2025 and what are you trying to accomplish with your practice so one of the things that they really want to try in 2025 is to combine onetoone coaching with with a cohort because I feel like I've seen that in the women ERG groups that they LED that there is a really powerful uh strength in a group so I'm I'm I'm currently working on uh kind of thinking about a program that will kind

of combine like okay you get a one-on-one coaching but also we meet as a group and you build like you buil some some uh relationship with other women that are maybe are in similar situation as you are like and uh also you kind of have some kind of group coaching sessions together oh I love I love that idea you have people to do yeah people are together that I love is there anything my network or my audience could do to supports you in amplifying your mission like what's a

way that either me or other coaches or other podcasters or people on LinkedIn can help you get that across definitely I mean follow me and uh if you find my content valuable or either to you or to someone else share it with the world another thing I'm very passionate about is my podcast from a woman to a leader so I want to invite you and others to uh to listen and also to share it with anyone you feel it's going to be valuable for yeah we'll make

sure to put that all in the links and make sure to distribute it to everyone on link and everything too so um where can people find you and connect with you I mean you'll send me send me your stuff so I can I'll add it to the description but um what's the best way to contact you yeah the best way LinkedIn that's the best way I'm there all the time so just follow me on LinkedIn and you'll get to I think you'll get to know me a little bit if you follow me that's great and then as a person yeah I Le it yeah that's great

that you're so authentic last one and then I know you got to go a final words of encouragement for everyone like if you were to get imagine you're going on a shot you're going to save like your one your 10c short what's what's something that you would give to take away to everyone today no matter where you are right now if situation seems dire if you seem like stuck there is always always a way forward and there are always opportunities there are always think so I want to encourage you to adopt an

abundance mindset and always ask yourself where are the opportunities and you'll find them oh I love that thank you so much thanks for taking the time today have a great rest of your day and um I'll catch up with you thank you Deon it was really a pleasure yeah this a lot of fun I hope to stay in touch what [Music]

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