From Burnout to Bestseller: A Nurse's Radical Career Reinvention

I essentially tried to go on stress leave and couldn't because they wouldn't pay me because they said I wasn't sick enough to be off. When I saw my wife after she gave birth, she went back to being a physical therapist at a clinic. I won't name the place, but they made her pump in on a toilet. Like they didn't even have a place for her to pump and they didn't change her productivity requirements. For the first time in my life, I I had two job offers and I took the lower paying one. It's okay to leave the toxic job for less money because there are better jobs out there. And

essentially, that's what it was when I started these other businesses was just to make up the difference. It was going to be a side hustle. I never thought I would be able to do very much with it. But like in full transparency, I'm making a lot more now than I was before. I've never shied away from trying new things and why not start a podcast. So that's how we started the Greedy Nurse podcast. You leaned on your customers. You took their feedback and you found what worked for them and you cared a lot about them. You loved your people that you were serving. And that is how we got

started with bookw writing and the wisdom of nurses. So April 2024, we became number one bestsellers on the Global Mail and also Toronto Star. Hey everyone, welcome to Ambition Aligned. Today I'm really excited to have on Sarah, my friend, who is host of the Gritty Nurse podcast, author of the book The Wisdom of Nurses, Ed, also a career coach and confidence coach. Hearing her journey about how she went from being a nurse leader to a number one best-selling author and podcast host,

and owning her own successful business in less than 5 years is nothing short of inspiring. I think you're going to get a ton out of this episode. We talk about really important aspects of the healthcare industry and how we have to treat our nurses and healthcare providers much better. And I just really think you're going to love it. Subscribe, like it, and please support Sarah and all of her initiatives. Let's get started. Sarah, thanks so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. I think the our audience is really going to get a really interesting perspective

on from you on what it's like to transition from being a nurse and from hospital care and all all of the medical industry to being an entrepreneur and um it's personally a really interesting topic to me because my wife is a physical therapist and we especially during co realized the struggles that can happen from the hyperproductivity and just the amount of labor and caring ing it takes to be in that industry. Um, and the juxaposition against the tech industry and how like

work from home and people are complaining including myself complain about, oh, we have to be on call at all hours, but we're at home and we're not dealing with patients and we're not dealing with insurance companies and hyperp productive care. So, um, so I'm just excited about today's episode. So I'm curious from your perspective if you could just share with everyone a little and the audience just a little bit of your background and maybe your journey from being a nurse to writing a book and becoming an entrepreneur. Yeah, first of all, thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I am pretty sure this is my first tech podcast ever. So I'm

really excited to share some of my learnings and I do think there is a lot of intersection actually between healthcare and tech although people don't think of it that way. So my background is I'm a registered nurse. I've been a nurse for uh 18 years now and I've worked in a variety of different roles. So like most nurses, I started at the bedside, which is what most people think of when they think of nursing. They think of a nurse at the bedside in a hospital. So that's where I started my career in labor and delivery. I spent most of my career working with

moms and new babies. And I did things like prenatal education. I worked for a little bit as a research nurse. I taught college courses to other nurses. And then I transitioned into nursing leadership. So I was working on things like quality improvements and projects and policies, all that kind of stuff that you don't think of behind the scenes when it comes to healthcare. And long story short, in 2019, I had sort of a mental breakdown, stress episode where I needed to be off work and I was not

supported to be off work. And I decided at that point I was going to try something different which was out of the hospital setting. So, I took a job as an educator in home and community care. So, as you know, a lot of people, a lot of elderly people receive care in their homes rather than having to go to the hospital if they don't need to. And around that same time, I was really feeling frustrated and burnt out and not being listened to. And a friend of mine who I worked with said, "Hey, do you want to start a podcast?" And I thought, "Well, why not? I've never shied away

from trying new things and why not start a podcast?" So that's how we started the Grey Nurse podcast. And around that same time, I started to become really interested in helping nurses with their careers because in leadership, we would interview a lot of nurses. And I could tell there were some really great nurses with not so great resumes and not so great interview skills. And I thought if someone had just prepared them a little bit, they would have probably done a lot better. And so those two things kind of went side by side and the pandemic hit and uh we we were being asked to be

interviewed a lot on live media talking about the pandemic and things like that and um a literary agent actually saw us on one of those media segments and asked us if we'd be interested in writing a book and that is how we got started with bookw writing and the wisdom of nurses which was released just a year ago uh bestseller list. Well, congratulations on that and I just got through reading it and so we'll definitely plug it and I encourage everyone to read it. I wasn't when when you sent it to me or when you told me about it, I wasn't expecting to get all

the ghost stories and the interesting background on it uh on uh Nightingale and the like what famous nurses are and and aren't and why they don't get as much recognition as they deserve. So, I thought it was actually a really fun fun read. I was expecting something a little different, but I was really pleasantly surprised. So well worth you earning the top seller mark and congratulations and I encourage everyone here to read it. Um there's so much to unpack there. I want to start with something that maybe everyone ex everyone I know who really cares about their work tends to

experience especially stvers of people who want want to do more is that feeling of it sounded like you weren't supported by your work for a little bit of around burnout and or something tangential to burnout and so I'm wondering if you can talk more about that. what what were you um what were you experiencing and what what did you need ultimately to get through that experience because I'm sure so many people are going through that right now. A lot of people don't realize that in nursing there is a lot of what we call nurses eating their young. So

when you first start as a nurse it's almost like you have to go through this right of passage where the older more experienced nurses haze you. They purposely don't tell you what you need to do. They make life harder for you as a newrad in order to help you earn your stripes. And so that has become kind of part of nursing culture. And I actually was lucky enough to not really experience that. Where I started experiencing the toxic work environment was when I moved into my very first nursing leadership role. And I do think I was a bit younger than most nurses to

get my first nursing leadership role. And um because nursing is so traditional, it's so focused on your years of experience. I think that was a little bit threatening to other people on the team. And so they made it hard for me to get my work done. So things like gaslighting, withholding information I needed. I didn't have the terms at the time for what I was going through, but that is essentially what it was. And I suffered through that for almost 2 years. But because I was pregnant at the time, I told myself I needed to make it through to my Matt leave. That was my goal. Get through the

Matt leave. and then you know then you'll be off for your time. So that was really my first experience with toxic work environments and my entire goal as as sad as it sounds my entire goal of my Matt leave was to not have to return that to that job. So while I was on Matt leave, I did interview and got hired at a different job also in leadership at a different organization and I moved into that role and probably within 3 months I was experiencing the same thing but this time it was coming from my manager

instead of my teammates. So that toxicity, the unreasonable expectations, the gaslighting, being told to work on one thing and then in a separate meeting being told, "No, that's not what I asked you to do. I wanted you to do something else." and really started to make me question my sanity. Like, did I hear did I understand exactly what I was expected to do or was it me? Right? Like the first thing I was doing was blaming myself. And it got to a point where I was experiencing a lot of mental stress,

a lot of physical symptoms. I was literally going to therapy to try and uncover the solution to these problems. And what I realized was it was all coming from this toxic work environment and not feeling supported, feeling burnt out, and having really no one to turn to. And I think that this happens in a lot of different industries. But you would think that in healthcare because we are a caring profession that we would care for each other. Well, it's actually very much the opposite in a lot of cases. And even though you are a

caregiver by background, we don't receive that care back in return when we need it. and I really thought this was something I needed to do for myself and I really had to pivot my career at that point and find something where I was feeling more supported. Well, first off, I'm sorry that you experienced that and I want to say it's it's kind of it it was an eye openener for me too when I saw my wife after she gave birth. She went back to being a physical therapist at a clinic. I won't name the place, but they made her pump

in on a toilet. like they didn't even have a place for her to pump and they didn't change her productivity requirements. And so I remember how stressed she was on, you know, you're barely operating on any sleep because you're taking care of a young child in a she only had two or three months a very limited Matt leave in the first place and she had to take government benefits for it all. And then to be back and not even have enough time to pump um to get milk for our daughter was so stressful for her. And then she would get hounded about productivity all all the time. and she

was a highly productive, highly intelligent person like yourself. But I think it's fascinating and really unfortunate how negative the leadership experience can be in very technical industries. I've seen it in accounting and finance where you you kind of move up because you've survived long enough, not because you're actually a great leader or you care about people and then because they had a hard time, they give everyone else a hard time. You saying nurses eating eating their young, right? And that's just it's horrible and I a

deplorable and there needs to be better leaders in these fields taking care of taking care and being compassionate for their people. Um so were you able to was that transition what you needed to find uh to find some of that balance? Are you finding that? Oh yeah. So I after I had that episode where I essentially tried to go on stress leave and couldn't because they wouldn't pay me because they said I wasn't sick enough to be off. I took a job and I totally pivoted. So, I left the hospital and I went into home and community care in a leadership position. And for the first time in my

life, I I had two job offers and I took the lower paying one. And up until this point, I'd always been so fixated on making a certain income and increasing my salary with every move. I took a pay cut because I liked the people at this other job better and I felt like it was a change that I needed to maybe not be working with doctors. And it turned out to be exactly what I needed. So, I took a chance and I pivoted completely and it was great because I didn't know what it was like to not work in a toxic work environment

and I realized I had actually developed a lot of bad habits which I talk about. So, things like gossiping instead of just getting the work done. When I had a problem with someone, I should just talk to them face to face instead of talking about them with everyone around me except that person. So, these are the things that I had been accustomed to in very toxic work environments. And it wasn't until I had a boss who was a man for the first time, he said, Sarah, he's like, "Why don't you just get the work done?" And I thought, "Yes, that makes total sense. Why don't I just get the

work done instead of talking about why this person hasn't done X, Y, and Zed?" Like, it was just so it was just like a slap in the face like I could just get the work done and so I should do that. And we went through something called accreditation, which is basically a designation. And it's a very stressful time. So several months into this job, we had to go through this accreditation process. And that's typically when you see people at their absolute worst. And I did not see any bad behavior whatsoever at this new job. And I

thought, well, if this is how people behave when they're the most stressed, I think I found the place that I want to be. And about 4 months into this new job, this is when the pandemic hit. And so inadvertently, this job turned into my very first remote job. and I stayed at it for about two years after the pandemic hit until I had grown my business enough to feel comfortable to step away from this full-time job. So now I create my own schedule. I have what I call slow mornings where I drink coffee. I go to all my kids field trips.

I volunteer. Like it's something that I never thought was possible. It's better than what I ever thought I could have. And I'm still helping people. So, with my with my career coaching business, I'm still helping healthcare professionals. With a podcast and the book, I'm able to advocate for better work conditions for nurses and even tell people what it actually is that nurses do. And I think this is something that not a lot of people really understand beyond what they see in traditional media and TV and movies.

So, yeah, there's so much to talk about here. Yeah, it's all amazing points and I love what you're doing and I love that I love for you that you have come to this other side and are finding something better for yourself. And I think what a lot of people need to hear in every industry is it's okay to leave the toxic job for less money because there are better jobs out there and it's really a lot of people feel really trapped and my wife felt that way. She thought especially in the healthcare industry she thought she had to leave.

she was weird like exploring her going to study engineering or even accounting or something different because she just thought she was stuck in um in healthcare and she had little stories about like how she couldn't even have time for a cup of coffee that's normal to enjoy her cup of coffee which is you know we take for granted I got to have my cup of coffee in front of my desk at all time maybe drink too much but so many people in healthcare like don't even have she'd be dehydrated because she wouldn't get water breaks because she was so busy in between patients and

she had to wear masks then she couldn't have take the time to change because of productivity requirements. Some of the stuff is borderline like Oh, it is totally Yeah, it is abuse. Absolutely. 100%. So, yeah. So, it's a great that you're advocating for it and I wish like if I knew about you before like a year or two before um we actually went through that ourselves, I would have just hired you on the spot because that would have been so helpful to know that there was that avenue of going into something warmer or finding a better work work life balance. Um but a few

things I want to call out there. First is how did you get in the mindset of accepting less money because I I feel like that is something that traps people. So, I feel when I'm coaching people is I I was just talking to someone the the other day of, hey, I'm I want to get a job where I have better work life balance, I have more money, and I get promoted and I can work remotely. And it's really hard for to explain to people that's kind of not how that's not how it you don't you don't get to get all of it, right? Everyone would wants that. How how do you if you

want more flexibility and more control over your life, which is which is what you've done, how did you get yourself into the mindset of taking that risk? I think I was at the my breaking point really. So similar to your wife, I was having serious doubts about even staying in the nursing profession. So when it came down to it, when it came down to those two job offers, the first one matched my salary because it was what I asked for. But I actually had heard from two different former employees who worked at that organization at different times in completely different

departments that it was an awful place to be. So that was red flag number one. Um, number two was that I had found out that a lot of people in leadership at that organization were part of the same family. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with family-owned organizations, but I could see that there could be a lot of nepotism there. And I just thought, well, if we're talking about 15%, like we're not talking about a it is it is substantial, but it's not like half the pay I was making. It was 15%. And I was able to

negotiate a couple other things that were non-monetary, such as they waved the waiting period on my benefits. They gave me my choice of starting date. They gave me more vacation when I asked for it. And I thought, well, this seems to me like they're compromising, right? And it was just really that or I was going to leave just like your wife. It was either I take this pay cut or I'm going to leave because I don't know what else to do right now. And I had been without pay all this time. I was trying to get approved for stress leave. So, I was already making no money. I needed

something. So, I guess it really came down to practicality. And I just thought, well, if it really came down to it, maybe I would pick up something on the side to make up the difference. And essentially, that's what it was when I started these other businesses was just to make up the difference. It was going to be a side hustle. I never thought I would be able to do very much with it. But, like, in full transparency, I'm making a lot more now than I was before. So sometimes taking a little risk and a min and a temporary pay cut, it does pay

out in the end. Well, yeah, maybe you can say that again for the audience because I think it's so important and it's something I talk about all the time and I do financial literacy courses. Like being able to take these risks can ultimately unlock even more money and more success because you're living aligned with your values and you're not burnt out and you're actually doing things that are adding value to people and you're not being unlocked and like stuck in these crazy bureaucratic organizations that are abusive. You ride you do better when

you're not in those environments, right? And so I'm curious if you're speaking to like maybe there's some nurses out there or PTs or people in healthcare who just feel like they're stuck and may maybe you could speak to them and say that again you know say exactly what you just said of what's on the other side of this right if they if they stop chasing the money and the title. Yeah I think that it is about taking a calculated risk. So I'm not suggesting anybody go out and quit your full-time job right now and start a business when you have no idea

what you want to do. I think it is a process, but I think you have to get into the mindset that without taking a small risk, there is not going to be that reward. I talked to a lot of nurses and healthcare professionals that have what I call the golden handcuffs. So, they're so concerned about their seniority or their benefits or whatever else they feel like they've worked towards, but meanwhile, they're miserable that they think about leaving every day, but without realizing that there is so much that you could do, but you have to take that little chance and you have to get into the mindset that

there's nothing that's a guarantee, right? You are taking a risk, but without doing that, you don't know how much better it could be. And so, part of it, I think, is also confidence. It's like when to use the term that you use when you've been abused, right? You are going to lose your confidence. But this is where you have to think about well how have I been successful before and how have I picked myself up before? What am I good at and what do I enjoy? And it doesn't really have to have a lot to do with healthcare. Like I right now I help clients. I do one-on-one coaching with

their careers. That's not really what I learned in my career, but I do have that expertise. I have the lived experience. Being a nurse, I'm a good listener. where I feel like I'm very empathetic. So there are ways that you can take little bits of what you have done in a previous job and turn it into something else completely different but still using your knowledge and skill. No, thank you. That's that's golden. And I'd encourage everyone, you know, go down that path. If you are not being treated correctly, give yourself

cushion. figure out how you could take that calculated risk and take it not just for yourself, but for your family, for your health, for your future self, right? It it winds up being better as long as you're as long as you're really taking that calculated risk. I'm not saying this to the brand new student who just graduated and is having a hard time their first month, right? This is for people who are seasoned in their career and are being exploited. Um, with that, so let's go. You a lot of people would end it there. Like that's already a winning like amazing story that you went

through this abuse which was so unfortunate and you found a great job and then you built a business. So can you talk about a little bit about how that happened and especially during co and especially being a parent it's that's a full-time job too. So you're doing all of this at the same time. Can you just talk about balancing that and how this podcast and this business emerged while you were still parenting and working this other full-time job? Well, I think the thing is I didn't really think it through. I just I just started. And that's the hardest part about starting a business is actually

starting because the truth is there is never going to be a perfect time to start a business. Um I read this quote once and I think it's really meaningful. It's like the best time to start a business is today. The second time the second best time to start was yesterday. So you just need to get started. And your first business idea may not be the idea, but without actually trying it, you won't learn. Right? So, my first business I started over 10 years ago, and I was trying to be somewhat of a postpartum doula to help new moms after

they had their baby cuz I felt like they weren't getting enough support in the hospital. And nobody remembers this business because I was so afraid to fail that I didn't even really tell people I was doing it. Like my own husband forgot about this. He's like, "What are you talking about?" I'm like, "Remember that business I tried to start and I paid all this money for a website and never went anywhere?" And he's like, "Oh, oh yeah." And I'm like, "Okay, if he doesn't even remember, that's how forgettable it was." But what I did learn from that was that I didn't know how to market myself. I didn't know how to do the things. I

had the clinical expertise, but I didn't have anything else. And so, it's okay to fail. It's okay to, you know, start from square one. But just getting back to your question, I just found a little way to start. So, for example, with the podcast, we just started putting episodes out. It was awful. The first one, we didn't even know how to stop the recording. And we didn't realize till after we released it that we also didn't take that part out. So, if you listen to the end of the very first episode, you'll hear me being like, I'm going to go listen to it. How do I stop this? How do I stop this? Oh, okay. I got it. So,

there's nowhere to go but up. And I don't want to take that episode off cuz I I want the proof that I have improved since then. And really, when you're starting at the bottom, there's nowhere to go but up. And then with the resume stuff, I didn't think at the time that nurses needed help with their careers because this was before the pandemic, before everyone was feeling like they're feeling now. And I literally just joined a couple Facebook groups and I said, "Hey, does anybody want their resume reviewed for free?" And in exchange, just write me a testimonial. So, I did

that a lot. I would say for a good 2 or 3 years, I didn't have time to watch Netflix. So, what I would do is I'd get up really in the early in the morning, sometimes even like around 5:00 or 6:00 in the morning. I'd work until my kids woke up, look after them, did my full-time job, which was usually about 8:00 to 4:00. Then they would, you know, do all the after school stuff, dinner, bath time, bed. Then from about 9 until 12, if I felt up to it, I would do more

work. So that went on for several years. And this is where I said I didn't have time to watch Netflix. People kept talking about this show called um The Lion. What was it? The one The Tiger King. The Tiger King. Uh I didn't watch that show for probably 2 years until after it came out because I didn't have the time. And so now when I talk about the fact that I have time, it took a lot of this to get to that point. But I would say it's worth it and you get to work on your own terms and you get to

call the shots. If there's something I don't want to do or someone I don't want to work with, I just don't do it now. Whereas before, I didn't have the choice, right? I had to make it work. I had to make it work so that I could get my job done and not get written up. Yeah. Well, what you did was perfect. And it's just amazing the uh the parallels like in business we call it MV the MVP like the minimum viable product but the idea is the same. It's take the risk and get something out there immediately and learn from it and and you'll learn from what people want to

purchase and you did it while still doing your your work which is the challenge but also the way you learn so you don't take a full risk right and so um so yeah I it's I would recommend that to anyone that just start immediately start learning now and that doesn't mean diving into it 100% it means starting to put effort in every single day and knowing that the it's frontloaded right like you said your learning and everything is going to be on an exponential curve and your learning curve is also on on that curve. So, you're going to get better at it as

you go, but the first few years are going to be a little tough and you're going to have to take some extra time on the front end, but it's worth it on the back end once you learn. Yeah. And all these business terms that you're mentioning, I learned after the fact. So, the MVP I learned not that long ago, probably about a year and a half ago. But like informally, I was doing that. I just didn't have the terminology or necessarily the strategy. But that is all stuff you can learn afterwards, too. Don't feel like you have to learn everything and be perfect before you get started because that is really what there a lot of the hesitation is. People

feel like they have to be perfect when really you just need to get out there and learn as you go. Yeah. And I'm I'm curious if you had this experience, too, and then I'll get back to the like the order of the story, but I find it it's it's so funny that it's so much easier to critique than create, right? And so for me, when I first started doing the podcast and when I started doing my own business and I can't tell you how many people give me feedback, I'm like, "Oh, you know, you could have like look at this podcast that you could do it more like this or hey, check this out or have you thought about doing this for your business? I think this would be a better niche for

you." And that's that kind of thought process for me is what gets people stuck. It's like you're overanaly. If you're overanalyzing what I'm doing, how much are you overanalyzing what you you yourself are doing? you're never going to be able to go and create and do something that just takes action and kind of falling on your face a few times and looking and being embarrassed, right? And I think no matter where you are, there's going to be someone ahead of you and there's going to be someone behind you. So, you're always looking at, well, how can I be more like this person, not realizing that you're already ahead of a lot of people? And

also, the world doesn't need another one of someone that's already out there. They need your they they need your authenticity and your genuiness. Um I I don't actually listen to that many podcasts. I know this sounds bad even though I have my own and I like to come on other podcasts but it's for that exact reason right I listen I start feeling anxious I start comparing myself to other people that I should talk a certain way that I should act a certain way there is a certain format that I should have my own podcast or my own way of speaking but people just connect with

you as you are and it's okay if it's not perfect I have made many mistakes and often the mistakes you make are more apparent to you than other people and if people are judging Are they out there doing the same thing or are they judging you from behind where they are from the security of not putting themselves out there? So that's the thing you have to ask yourself, right? It's like you said, it's so easy to judge, but are they out there doing the same things? And if they're not, does their opinion really matter that much or does your opinion matter more?

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I I love it. I love it. I'm curious when did it happen? So, I'm kind of following the the storyline of you're working 9 to midnight while building your business while you're working and being and doing mom duty and all that that entails. When do you start getting the confidence of saying, "Wow, I found my niche. I found where I'm really helping people and I think this is going to be I think this is going to be where it all heads." Um, I would say that I had noticed that the business was

steadily growing. It still wasn't at a point to where I probably should have left, but it was probably, let's see, end of 2021. I had a really impactful conversation with one of my good friends husbands who is in copywriting and he has been an entrepreneur for he's been working on his own for almost 20 years. And I told him my dilemma about the hours like I had a full-time job. I had these two businesses. I had the kids and something had to give. And I did not want it to be the business. So then he

said to me, because my husband was feeling really nervous about all this and finances, he said, "Why don't you time box it? Tell him you're going to try this for 12 months and if it doesn't work, you can go back to your job. There's no there's no harm in that." So that's how I presented it to my husband because he's a numbers guy and he's very um riskaverse. So I presented this to him and I said, "Listen, it's been growing two to three times year-over-year. I know it's not really at a level yet where it's matched my current income, but I think I'm slowing

down because I'm I've got this full-time job really just getting in the way all the time. So, he said, "Okay, let's just try it." So, I think within 6 months, I had decided that this was going to work and I was growing fast enough. And then I kind of gradually left the full-time job. And what I mean by that is I left the full-time hours, but then they asked me to stay part-time. Then they asked me to cover a leave of absence. Then they asked me to work, you know, one day a week. So it was a gradual transition which probably worked out for the

better. And then I fully left full-time work in 2022. So it was a it was a slow transition, but I think it was really what was needed to make sure that I could do this. And just getting back to your question about confidence, I think the more results I saw just it just was this cycle of, okay, I can do it. I can do it. And I was used to that point not having the same exact income every month. So I think as an entrepreneur you have to get comfortable with that. But

it is part of what it takes, right? To really have the freedom and creativity that you're looking for if that's what you want to do. Yeah. And it goes back to this whole interesting concept of us kind of being addicted to the work culture, right? That whole idea of a paycheck and us not planning financially. Something I always push on this channel is like how much can you really live on and are you actually planning your family finances like a business because that's not how real life works. Like you don't for most most of history we didn't get salaries,

right? We like farmed and grew food and had to store it for winter and or hunt and store it for winter and build things when times were good and the sun would make like make hay when the sun's shining, right? And um and this salary mindset almost takes us away from some of what's more natural for us where we have seasons of rest and seasons of work and and um and so it's just I it's it's really cool that you're saying that it sounds like you're happier with the instability of the income because you're managing because you've gotten

comfortable with what this more natural flows if that's right. Yeah. And what I've learned over time is talking to most most other entrepreneurs, no matter how successful they are, we all have the same insecurities. Like, am I going to have enough money this month or where am I going to get where am I going to get more clients or like we all have the same insecurities. It's just that some people talk about it more than others. And if I had if if I had to do this over again, I probably would have just prepared more financially, like saved a

little bit more. But really, at the end of the day, it's just learning by trial and error and talking to other people and finding your new tribe. So, when I left my full-time job, I I left all my co-workers, right? But I had to find a new sense of community and other people who were doing similar things and bounce ideas off other people instead of my co-workers, right? Because they weren't where I was. So, I think part of it, too, is just getting that support. And maybe it's from other entrepreneurs or other people in your niche or even your

friends and family, but I find that that piece is something you have to consciously work towards. Yeah, it's tough finding community of entrepreneurs because so many of us are so busy and ambitious that and you don't we're not as vocal. Like you might see the podcaster, but it's hard to get a conversation with them over the phone, right? And so, um, so yeah, and it's so counterultural to leave. Like, even for me, I'm I'm like, I'm leaving Google to go do my own thing. And I can't tell you how many people have told me I'm an idiot. You know, don't don't go do it. Why are you leaving the Kushi Paycheck?

And it's uh it's like uh how do you I I think you nailed it. It's like how do you find your tribe and make sure that you have people that are reinforcing where you want to be? Obviously, if you aren't comfortable with where you are. And so I'm I'm curious though if we could dig a little deeper into when did you feel comfortable with that niche of career coaching around health care professionals looking for their next their next thing maybe even remote work preparing for remote work and educating on these opportunities. I think it really came

back from the results that my clients were seeing. So, in the beginning, I would say the first year or so, every time I would send something over, I would hold my breath because I would think, "Oh, they're going to think this is terrible. They're going to think this is not what they asked for. They're going to ask for their money back." And so, the more positive feedback I got and more importantly, the results when they were seeing them, it just reinforced to me that this was a service that people needed and it was something that I could deliver. And the to be honest, most people that come to me, they don't come

to me because I have a certain certification or a certain degree. They come to me just because I'm a nurse and because they feel like I understand where they're at. So, a lot of times people will say like people outside of the industry will say, "Oh, well, I want to start a business. Do you think I should get a coaching certification or sort of do this and that?" And I always say it doesn't hurt, but to be honest, it's not something I'm currently being asked for, right? So just I think listening to what your clients are saying is always going to help. And so

when I listen to what people are saying, it just gave me the confidence I needed to keep going. And there have been things that I've done wrong and mistakes I've made and money I have spent on things that looking back I shouldn't have spent the money on. But I think just trying new things is always something you should do as an entrepreneur. And just having the confidence that even if you fail, you can pick yourself up again and it's not the end of the world. Yeah. I I think that's one of the wisest things any business person's ever said

is what what you just you leaned on your customers. If I can replay it back, is you took their feedback and you found what worked for them and you cared a lot about them. You loved your people that you were serving. And like that's that's where that nervousness comes. that you're giving something to them, you really hope it's valuable and then they give you the feedback and that's your best learning experience, right? And at the end of the day, if you keep doing that, if you keep learning what your customers or partners want, you're going to develop something really valuable for them. And having that nursing like those

technical skills of nursing or like CPA licenses, those technical skills can really take you a far away. all the softer stuff like coaching certifications and like building your own business certifications um they're nice maybe you'll learn something but not necessarily the same at the same level as going through the fire like you did and I think that was part of the mindset I had to get around so when I was at when I was a nurse I was all about the certifications and the degrees like I have so many certifications now that

have expired that I don't do anything with but at the time I felt like it was the only way to get ahead was actually um I have I used to be a lactation consultant. When when you talked about your wife pumping milk, I was like, "Oh, I that's one of the certifications I used to have." I got certified as a perinatal nurse. I had a project management certification at one point and I had all the things, right? But they didn't they didn't translate into being a business owner. Um, there are lots of people that have business

degrees and they still struggle with entrepreneurship because I think there are certain things you probably can learn from business school and certain things that you just have to learn in real life. And that was a big learning curve for me too was that the the degrees helped me in my previous career, but they're not really something that help me now. Yeah. And can I just pause for a second? It's insane how many certifications there are for healthcare professionals. I think my wife like did like 20 of them and there was just Yeah. there. I mean,

I'm over exaggerating, maybe 10 or something, but it's just like in everything like you said. I I had no clues like lactation consultant for my wife. It was like some kind of like kinesiology on how how do you move your body in this way, functional movements, movement links like like vestibular system stuff. You can like special. It's insane how many certification programs there are and it can be a real rabbit hole where at the end of the day you learn more from just practicing it, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um,

so next on next I'm curious on how did how does that all become a successful podcast? Like where does where does that come from and how did how did that look in the pie? Now you're running your business, you're doing this podcast and you're starting to get some like actual live media coverage. Can you talk about that a little and how did that evolve? So the podcast really was just a platform for us to share. Initially it was to share the struggles we had at work and the burnout and the stress and how nobody was listening to us. So for

me at the beginning it was therapy really to talk about this and know that I was sharing my story with other people and it resonated with them. And I remember the first episode we put out it was December 2019. We hit the publish button. We had told everybody we knew about it and we're like oh we got 30 downloads. That's amazing. So it just really started from nothing, right? And then the pandemic hit and I would say about a year and a half into the podcast. So I was getting we were getting a lot of requests to be on media. It was

probably about a year and a bit into the podcast and then we just started talking to guests, right? So we started to get guests on the podcast and the more media we did, the more guests wanted to come on and some of them were really high-profile. So, we even had um our former prime minister Justin Trudeau come on. We've had um nurse influencers. We've had politicians. So, now we've got to a point where we have easily 5 to 10 pitches per week of people that want to come on our podcast and we have to be

really selective and a lot of times we just wanted to be the two of us because that's how we got started and that's how people know us. So the podcast really took on a life of its own where it seemed like for the first time people in the media, the general public really took a keen interest in what nurses had to say because of co and everything. And we rode that wave. We took that opportunity. We said yes to everything. you know, we were so much out there that I think I would even sign onto my phone and at one point I'd be scrolling

through Google and it was my own news article or my own interview that would come up being suggested to me. So, it was just really it was really advocacy. It was really talking about things that had been talked to talked about before. Traditionally, the media has always asked physicians for their opinions and not nurses. So, we just started saying, "Well, why haven't you asked a nurse about the nursing shortage? why are you asking a doctor about the nursing shortage? That just doesn't make sense. So, we really um put ourselves out there and I think that's really what made the

podcast and that has what made the book into what it is. We essentially did a media tour for the book and that was really tiring but fun in itself like being on national media for the whole week leading up to the release of our book. So much so much to unpack there. But when did you when did you realize this was taking off? Like you obviously didn't expect it at all. It sounded like you're just kind of having fun with a friend and doing some some verbal

therapy and doing it. It's fun to share. It's a really cool way to connect the podcast community, right? It's like you're sharing yourself and your thoughts with people and some people are interested. Um but when did was it COVID that spiked it or what was that catalyst do you think that suddenly you woke up and you said wow this is really growing faster than I expected? Well, we were doing a lot of topical things, right? So, every time there was something about CO, we were talking about it. So, when they finally declared it to be airborne, we talked about it. We had we had done an episode actually on a nurse in the

States who lost her license due to a medication error that was hugely topical at the time. And so, we got a lot of US listeners from that one episode. And I think that it was just growing over time and us being consistent. So, a lot of podcasts I I read somewhere that the average podcast is only seven episodes. So, when we got to seven, I thought, well, this is great. Then then that turned into 50. Then that turned into 200. And I think now we're approaching our 200th episode. So, it's really just about consistency and putting yourself

out there and eventually people find you, right? And we have our core base of listeners that we don't have to tell them. They know when the episode's coming out. They'll look for it. They'll send us feedback. So you you find your tribe too when it comes to podcast listeners and what they're looking for and they do interact with you and I think really when it hit me that we had done a lot was we went to this international nursing conference a couple years ago and co you know kept everyone at home so everything we've been doing was all all online even all

the media and when we got to this conference we couldn't get anything done because people kept coming up to us and wanting to talk to us and wanting pictures with us and it was just a very weird feeling. So I think at that point when I realized at this international conference of nurses that we couldn't even attend any of the talks because people kept stopping to talk to us that maybe we were on to something here and it was just very surreal to me. I think that's so I that's so

interesting and it is because we work in this little box, right? You're like just in front of your computer. You don't realize when you get in the world, people are see actually seeing this stuff. And most of these people don't comment or like you or send emails, right? But they're still seeing it. The amount of impressions you might be getting is insane. So that's amazing. I I I wanted I kind of skimmed over, but I want to highlight something really important that you said. It's a real shame like how highlighted doctors and physicians are in our industry without realiz like with in the healthcare in general without realizing the education and care of our nurses and other

healthcare providers like physical therapists like my wife is way outperformed me in school and went to some of the top schools with 4.0's and it's sharper than a lot of the doctors I personally know. um and cares about her patients and researches and spends her time. And I know so many nurses and um and other healthcare providers like that that are better than doctors and a lot of the doctors I've known who just don't care as much. They got into the profession and got bored or you know there's the old saying like if you touch the patient you can bill them, right?

Like there I I know some doctors that just do that. And I love that you're changing that perspective. It needs to happen because there there are so many nurses and uh and other healthcare providers just that are going to be better for people than doctors, right? Yeah. And it doesn't have to be a doctor versus nurse thing. We we each have our own area of specialty. I just think that traditionally nurses have been overlooked, underappreciated, underpaid. Whenever there's something that happens in the news lately, I found it's negative when it comes to nursing. So

like a nurse who has committed a crime, a nurse who has killed a patient, a nurse who lost her license. So what I want to do also with all of this is show more positive stories when it comes to things like nurses have accomplished and the fact that the whole premise of our book was when we pitched it to the publisher and the lure agent, I said to them, can you name a famous nurse? And it can't be Florence Nightingale. And most people can't. And if they do think of someone, it's a fictional character like a nurse ratchet or someone who's

been portrayed in popular culture but is not a real person. So we talk about in our book actually like here are some actual names of famous nurses who are still alive today because I find a lot of the nurses who are wellknown died a 100red years ago. Like there's just no modern nurse that people can look up to. So, we're like, here are some actual names that you might want to know a bit more about them and their stories. And you actually mentioned something about the book that almost everyone mentions who's not in nursing, and that's the

ghost stories. We did not realize how popular and entertaining people would find them, but most nurses do have ghost stories, and it seems to be this subculture that, you know, people really want to know a lot more about. Yeah, I want to I want to ask questions. It's so interesting how these things go. Like I I love everything you're talking about and it's like I feel like I could talk to you for five hours, but I know we only have a little bit of time and so um I I kind of want to ask you like what your most interesting ghost story is, but I also don't want to give away because you talk about it in the book

and I I love how you pitched that. I didn't know that you pitched it and then it's like the first chapter of the book of who's do you know any famous nurses? Like do you name it all? Like that's the intro, right? Um, and it was an interesting challenge because I didn't like I didn't even and that's crazy to me. You know, there's so many famous doctors and doctor personalities um, but not famous nurses. So, I'm curious what can we do? What would you recommend the layman does to support their nursing community or the healthcare community

more? I think that there's a lot that the average person can do. You don't have to have a big platform. You don't have to be a person of influence or famous really to make a difference. So I think the first thing is that amplify what nurses are saying. So when we are um saying that nurses need to be treated better, that we shouldn't be abused on the job, whatever you can do on social media, do it. If you are um in touch with your local politician, bring this to their attention. When you're voting, vote strategically and look at what each

politician has to say on their platform about healthcare and how they support healthcare workers. I also think that if you have received good care from a nurse, please let someone know higher up that you received good care and who this nurse was because there is a lot of stuff that goes on with, you know, nurses receiving complaints. But let's talk about the great things that nurses do too. And if you do have a platform, just highlight some of the issues that are affecting nurses and healthcare because at the end of the day, if we can

create better work environments for healthcare workers and nurses, then patient care will be better as well. So, it's really for all of us, right? It's creating communities, creating environments where if we need to seek health care, that we know that there's going to be a nurse there who isn't burnt out, who is being treated well, who can give you her his or her 100%. And I think there are that's just a start, right? But there are many many things that the average person can do. And I love the personal appreciation like yeah, how can we amplify voices and

do personal appreciation? And it's things like I uh I know in the hospitals my wife worked at like the amount of appreciation from the institution compared to what doctors or other employees might get is just absurd. Like I she would tell me about a time she got a pizza party and they didn't even give her a slice of pizza. They would cut a square out of the slice of pizza and give it to the nurses and then they'd take all the doctors out for like a steak dinner, right? And it just like the nurses are still putting up with the same the same stuff and they're taking care. They're actually more active by

the bedside with these patients who are a lot of the times very ill or passing away or hard to take care of. And how how can we take more personal responsibility there? It's really good. Thank you for sharing. Okay, a few things I a few more things I want to cover. What did it look like or feel like when you got the liter? So you go on this lit this tour. So you're I want to follow it. You you go on COVID spikes, your podcast is taking off, your business is taking off, and now news outlets are starting to reach out to you to bring you on. And now you

have a literary agent reach out to you and say, "Would you like to would you like to do a book?" Was a book ever on the radar on your mind? Like did you ever want to write a book about all of this or was that a surprise? I I always wanted to write a book, but I didn't know how to go about it. So people started approaching us with really shady, scammy deals. Like they would say, "You need to pay this much money for us to feature you in a single chapter in your book." And I was like, "Well, that's not what we want." Like, "No, I I don't think I should have to pay money upfront, and you're and you're not even writing about it." It was like

It was crazy. It was like, "Pay $10,000 for me to interview you for one hour, and then we'll have someone write a chapter in this book." And well, can we pause there for a second? There's a dark side of the whole podcasting and writing agency that's absurd. I've already know like as soon as I started my podcast, I can't tell you how many people reached out and were like, "We'll be on your podcast if you pay us a,000 bucks or we'll like we're happy to write your book for you and be your book coach if you give us $10,000 and we'll write a chapter." Like there's so much of that

it's really scuffy. Anyone listening don't do that stuff. Do not That's not the way to do it. Yes. Do not pay any of your money upfront unless you are going down the self-publishing route. So, I won't name our literary agent, but when he approached us, the first thing I did was make sure that he was legit, and I I could see that he was and he'd worked with several best-selling authors and celebrities. And so, we, you know, that was the very first thing I did. And once once I decided he was legit, then we agreed to meet with him. But it was definitely not something I expected. So,

I never expected to write a book with a major publisher. I never expected it to even chart, nevertheless, come number one. Like I was like I was about to start crying when I found out that we were number one. I was on a cruise. I was on a nursing cruise and I found this out and um my my uh podcasting partner called me and the the connection was really staticky and I was like what do you mean number one? I'm like number one like number one number one. And she's like number one. And that went back and forth for a while there but then once I

took it in I was like oh my god like this actually happened. I didn't I didn't think it could happen. And everyone kept comparing us to how doctors would do because very few nurses have actually written books. And so it was just really surreal and I thought, "Oh my gosh, if anything happens to men's cruise and I don't make it home, at least this is my legacy that I can leave to the nursing community and to my kids that this is something I did in my lifetime that I never thought was possible." Congratulations. I That's amazing. And

look, it all came from that one spark. Isn't it amazing that just looking back it was from your dissatisfaction with something and then you took that effort to go carve out something for yourself and make the place the world a little better and look where it's taken you so fast. What why five short years and yeah now that you mentioned it it's like it's been like three lifetimes of things happening in the last five years. Yeah, that's just absolutely amazing. But I got to pause because it threw me

off. What the heck is a nursing cruise? Are you are you with a bunch of nurses? Are you taking care of a bunch of people? It is It is a nurse themed cruise for nurses to Well, it's officially branded as a as an education opportunity, but I think people just want to go drink and let loose. So, it is a cruise that is designed for nurses and non- nurses can come, but it's mainly for nurses. And it is it it was an entire I think it was four or five days of just like nurses hanging out and

having fun and doing all the things that we couldn't do during the pandemic and um Oh, that sounds like a blast. Where was that? Where? So, that was out of uh it left out of Florida and it was a 5-day cruise and um where did it go? One of the islands in the Caribbean. It was great. So, I met a lot of nurse influencers and went to a couple talks and just kind of learned what other nurses do other than in my own little bubble. It's It's like a cruise. Like, you've been on a cruise, right? But it's

just nurse Yeah. No, I've been a cruise. I'm just imagining everyone in scrubs for some reason. No, it's like no one was wearing scrubs. It was nurse themed. So, there were nurse themed like Jeopardy nights. There were uh Yeah, there was like there was like an I think it was like an American Idol competition. like there was fun stuff going on and yeah it was just really cool to see so many thousands of nurses together really just hanging out and it wasn't workrelated so I think part of the thing is we never a lot of nurses really never hang out with each other

outside of work and so this was an opportunity to do that and do it with people from all over the world really. Yeah. And I I think that's just a really people don't realize that stuff exists and how how important it is to be in community with other people that have gone had similar experiences. That sounds I mean that sounds really cool. I was just curious. I've never heard of that before. Um but it makes sense. It obviously I know what a cruise is. Uh the I'm trying to figure out what's next for you. Like you kind of did it all. Yeah. You like you went you started a

successful business. you started a rocket the rocket ship podcast that took you to like big media outlets and now have a number one book. What's next? Are you going to like go to the moon or what's what's you know like like where do you go from there if you accomplish all that in 5 years? That's insane. Congratulations. But what's what's on the docket for you? What are you excited about right now? So with with um that actually led to a lot of speaking engagements. So I'm looking to do more speaking and it doesn't even have to be in healthcare. I'm really excited to talk to people in other industries like tech because I think there are things

like burnout and work toxic work environments that are universal to any industry. So doing more talks I think to share my knowledge is something I'm looking at. What we are looking at as a next step with a podcast is actually making a film. So we want to get into film making and creating things like that. And then on the uh career coaching side, I'm still working at building that. I'm looking at doing things for other industries like confidence coaching because what I noticed with a lot of the career coaching and interview

coaching I was doing is that literally half the session was spent just building people's confidence and I think that's something that a lot of people lack in general especially women especially people of color working parents. I think this is something that a lot of people struggle with and I want to help people overcome some of that. So confidence coaching is something I'm looking at working on next. And also I should mention trying to pitch a second book which is in the works. So hopefully if anyone out there is listening we are looking at a wisdom

of nurses part two in some way, shape or form. Is that going to be a continuation of the stories or what are you thinking there? Well, what we're trying to pitch right now is the wisdom of patients. So really talking about the fact that patients have a lot of expertise and they have a lot of they should have more control over how their healthcare looks. And so I think that's another piece that's missing right now. That'd be really cool. And I went down this really dark rabbit hole for a while of like um what people talk about on

their deathbeds and all of that whole experience. Uh and how much I was curious like how much wisdom there is for everybody and like in our hardest times that's where we have our deepest truth, right? And so I I think that book I wouldn't buy that in a second. I think that'd be really fascinating to hear the patient experience because we're all going to go through that in some time. We're all going to be in a hospital and have some kind of injury and how do we persevere through those times and what does that look like? I don't think there's enough talk about that. That would be amazing. Um, so full sport, you

already got a fire. Put me on the reading list or um that's a ton and so movie. What are you thinking about from the if you don't mind me digging in? What are you thinking about from the film side? Is it like episodes of your stories or back and forth or highlighting nurses? I think it'd be more of a documentary style, right? So, it'd be more of a documentary maybe interviewing nurses about um a topic such as the violence that they experienced in nursing and how that's not being talked about and so many nurses go through it and they that is a career-ending thing. So, if if it's

not burnout, right, then there are some nurses that get hurt on the job and hurt so badly that they can never return to work and there's not a lot of talk about that. There's also not a lot of protection for nurses and healthcare workers against violence in the workplace. And I really I really feel strongly about this because I read a statistic which seems almost too crazy to be true, which is that more nurses get hurt on the job than police officers because we don't have any of the protection and we don't have the training to deal with things like this.

Oh yeah. And I I remember my wife because you're dealing with disorder like a lot of the times your patients especially if you're in really intense situations they aren't conscious or they aren't themselves or their brains are damaged. My my wife focused on neurological disorders and she got bit by someone with some crazy disease once and we that was a huge scare for us. Like that could have been not just career ending like life debilitating. And that's the kind of risk healthc care providers are putting themselves at daily when they're caring for very sick people. And people do not talk about it

enough. And also the um the post-traumatic stress from dealing with that stuff. If you're looking at very sick people all day, for her, it's really tough for her to get out of that mindset with me or with like if I'm an hour or two late and she was working on the liver floor where people would come in with alcohol disease all the time or car accidents when she was working on um um on those type of floors, she'd be like, "Did she die?" She'd like she would call the cops sometimes. She was so worried that she I got in a car accident. I'm like that you don't realize that's not normal, right? Like that's you're just seeing this intense

population post-traumatic just it's it's so crazy what you all you all go through and thank you all. I feel like just like the army is like thank you for your service to the society as a whole. It's not an easy job. It's underpaid and underrepresented and um I love everything that you're doing in the space and so I think it's um curious before I close it all out what what's something my audience can do to support you. I'll put I'll put all the links below and everyone should follow you and buy everything that you release, but what else can we do to kind of support

you and your community? Well, I mean, you can just follow me on social media. You can follow um the Grey Nurse podcast. You can follow my company, which is the RN resume. And of course, um if you're interested in the wisdom of nurses, it's available on Amazon. You can get it in hard copy, ebook, or audio book. Um and just just you know support your local nursing association and politically I would say just again look up what your local politicians are doing. What is their platform around healthcare and that would really go a

long way. Um there's so many things that could be done but those are just some some of the things that are coming off the top of my head. Okay. Well make sure everyone does that and I want to end with just a few fun questions. First is I have a lot of leaders that watch this like CFO CEOs. What's what's your productivity tip now that you probably have more inbound than you can deal with? Like how do you sort someone like me reaching out to you to do a podcast episode versus probably the thousands of other people looking for your time and how are you sort of how do you how do you organize your time right

now? Yeah, so I've been following a lot of people on LinkedIn when it comes to productivity. So I use Trello now to manage my inbound and uh outbound leads and I have templates now. also templated responses when someone reaches out to me. I um you know I have shortcuts on my keyboard which I learned about. I had a virtual assistant for a little time there um just to kind of manage things and booking calendars. I use Calendarly to have people book so I don't need to do all the back and forth. Uh I'm not

super super techy so I will say I'm sure there's a lot I could be doing but those are some things I do to manage my time. Um, yeah, there's I'm sure there's a lot more out there that I'm not doing right now. No, I mean that's still great that you're still managing it proactively through and I think that's important for everyone here of at some point you just get too much inside and using these tools is very helpful. And then something fun, what what was your favorite snack that you used to get like at in a hospital cafeteria? Was there

anything that you really enjoyed? So, one of the one of the places that I did not like working at, literally the only thing I missed was the turkey wraps that they had in the cafeteria cuz they were freshly made and they would put them in the panini press and those were really good. So, I missed those. One of the things I loved eating on night shifts was hot wings. Like, we would order hot wings and we would eat them at the back of the nursing station, but because it was so messy, we would wear those hospital medical grade gloves and eat them. And then we would put them in the little styrofoam cups that you get for

water and we would just eat them in the corner. Um, and sometimes that's all we had to eat during the night shift because it got so busy. But I I miss some of those days and eating those hot wings. I should I should go do it again. Yeah, that sounds fun. In the press, my wife had a like an Oreo dessert. It was like this little like pudding with Oreo and whipped cream on top of it at one of her places and I'd visit her just for that. I don't know why I feel like always in a hospital just one little thing you can find that's like and the rest of it just captures it's getting better. Yeah. And then he said trash.

Yeah. Uh and then what's the one thing you do for rest and relaxation when you're off and you don't aren't dealing with the noise of everything else? I have been prioritizing self-care a lot more now that I'm not getting up at 5 and working until midnight. So I really really enjoy going to the spa. So that's my thing now. I like going to the spa and relaxing. I do um Pilates. I do hot yoga just to keep my body moving. And uh I also I also get my hair and my nails done. So these are things these are all

things that I was not doing before. And I remember actually about four years ago, maybe four or five years ago, I was asked to come onto a podcast about hobbies. It was a podcast just about showcasing people's different hobbies. And I never went on it because literally I did not have any hobbies at that time. I was too busy. I was too in the thick of it to have time to do anything except watch Netflix. And I don't really think that's a hobby. So now I actually have time for hobbies. And right now I'm training for a 10K. So like I have

things that I like to do that are just for me and have nothing to do with work. That's great. No, that's awesome. And I'm glad you're finding the space for that now. And hard same. Hard same there. I've definitely have been in the situation where there's no time for hobbies and I think it's so important for everyone. Well, hey, appreciate it. I already took so much of your time. I know you're really busy, but it was just really awesome getting to meet you and get getting to learn more and um I'm really looking forward to everyone hearing this episode and it's going to be a ton of value and everyone go by buy the book and hopefully we can have you on when the next book launch. Yes,

here's the book again just so we can see it. Thanks. I'll put make sure to put a big picture of it right at the beginning of the video too. So, hey, have a great rest of your day. Okay. Thanks so much.