AI Cannot Coach You: Why Most Tech Founders Fail as Leaders

And the way that you should be transitioning into that role is not by like, oh, that person looks like they're doing a really good job in their current role. They become the cap on their organization because they're not good at leadership. This is one thing which AI is really horrible at is saying I don't know. Hey everybody, I'm Devin Kums. I'm a CPA, MBA, and I work at Google Cloud where I lead multi-billion dollar deal negotiations as a financial expert. But for fun, I also do this podcast, Ambition Aligned, where I try to find purpose-driven professionals making real

impact with what they're doing in their lives. Please watch, please subscribe, and I think we're going to get a ton out of today's episode. And we're ready to go. Welcome to my podcast. Why is not my podcast? It's your podcast. Why don't you make the nuts? Yeah. No, thanks for making the time today. I'm really excited about this one specifically because I'm in Google and I work with a lot of tech people being in the Bay Area and I have found that many tech founders are extremely intelligent and good at their tech uh at the technical details

but really struggle with people. And so when I was talking to a CEO of a very prominent startup the other day, he was telling me about how his least favorite thing about his business is HR and people. And it seemed to me kind of counterintuitive because that's 90% of business and leading a team is you got to grow in order to scale. Yes. Yes. And I see that you're so focused on at least when I read through your stuff, you're so focused on bridging the EQ with the IQ. And yeah. So I'd be curious if you could walk me through your thoughts around that. For sure. And um even

though you said the EQ IQ um in the given uh current world of AI, I feel like some point we might need to leverage EQ to understand a certain AI model which is in front of us. Um I believe it. I believe it. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually really true. Which I think will require us having both of those hats. But yeah, you kind of hit it on hit it on the nose. Um a lot of uh technologists including myself uh love solving problems and uh

we love solving very technical complex problems and problems that already have been stated. If you give us a problem statement with all the details in it and give us I don't know five weeks in the dark room and maybe coffee or something like that. I think it's the most enjoyable experience for many engineers because they get to lock in into the puzzle, research things online, try some things out, and eventually perhaps arriving to the solution. The problem with the real

world is that a lot of problems are not actually very formulated. We absolutely love textbook problems because they're so isolated in their context, but real world problems are very poorly defined. And if there is a definition, if there is a problem statement, it's usually a product person's guess at what the problem is that needs to be solved, right? It's an experiment. And after we solve the problem, we're going to try it with the user. We're going to try it with the our customers and we hope that

it will solve their problem, which we think the problem is. So there's a lot of may that gets involved as part of problem definition. Now a lot of those may have to be extracted from the actual users, from the actual market, from the actual um customers and that happens through conversation. The thing that hasn't been done as part of our engineering journeys is nobody actually taught us how to have conversations. We've been taught how to program in certain languages. We've been taught how

to access specific database. We've been taught how to uh write beautiful AI models, but there is no communication. There is no negotiation class. There is no um uh team leadership classes as part of that journey. You can go up to as far as being a PhD in your art as a engineer. And most of those classes do not touch upon the issue. But how do you interact with other people in a way that you can be more successful, build a

business, even solve a problem better? And so that's why uh I decided to focus my current uh coaching on bridging that gap. Um and I tried to focus and figure it out for many different engineers for many different uh ways of that they travel. Um and we start with a place where we have to switch off the part which helps us solve the problems and start training up or transfer learning areas that can help us writing the

problem and defining the problem before we can actually attempt to solve. Now your the CEO example that you mentioned of your good friend is that HR is absolutely not the favorite one for many people but including engineers because it's so messy because it doesn't have clear guidelines because it starts including people problems as part of it and they are messy they're hard to define right but there are frameworks

there are analogies there are ways of thinking that we apply that helps us get through that and eventually the complexity of human problems becomes way more attractive to the brain which is have been trained on solving problems than typical technical problems. I'm not saying there are no technical problems out there which no remain attractive but the complexity of the human interactions especially at scale beyond 10 15 people becomes

immensingly complex and thus more interesting to solve. Yeah. And what's so interesting is what I'm hearing through all of this is even in finance or other technical fields not as technical as engineering but technical fields you get that where you get very technical people who ultimately wind up in leadership. Yes. and then they become the cap on their organization because they're not good at leadership. Leadership be then they become the bottleneck from system perspective. And so it would be really interesting to talk through since it's such a big problem for so many people as

soon as they enter management. Yes. What do you do to get them over that hurdle? How do you get to see people to see the value of entering into that leader people driven role and how do you do that practically? For sure. Um I think uh and if we're talking in in the context of an organization versus let's say uh entrepreneurs is that there has to be a certain promotion criteria which is not based at what you're good at now but what you're going to be good at in the role that you're going to be filling

which has leadership requirements. And the way that you should be transitioning into that role is not by like oh that person looks like they're doing really good job in their current role. they might be good at this leadership role because that's a gap. It's almost asking asking if can an ice skater be a really good hockey goalie. Yes, there is a lot of overlap but chances are they're not going to be as successful as somebody who let's say goes to through training as a hockey goalie. Um maybe watches some videos of other hockey goalie

playing. Um but what I see happens in a lot of companies is that person gets promoted one because their boss maybe left become maybe because the company has no other choice. There is no understanding that leadership requires training. It's not just an innate thing that like oh they're naturally born born leader they can just go ahead and take care of all the different problems that we have. No, it's a lot of training, but it's also a lot lot more experience. And some things that I try to um advocate

for uh in organizations that are trying to promote leaders or uh advice to people who would want to become managers and leaders is how can you get this leadership experience and management experience without being in a role yet? What are the opportunities that are available in your current role to volunteer for certain leadership responsibilities to manage some projects which perhaps are not bottom line impactful but they can demonstrate that you're able to organize lead manage um

and kind of lead the projects in a way that you can transfer that experience onto your next role. And if you don't have those opportunities uh inside the company, what are there opportunities outside of the company? Can you organize a club? Can you organize a project? Can you start a nonprofit which demonstrates that you can lead and organize a big number of people aligned towards uh that goal. Now you might be also in a disadvantage where your organization might not understand what leadership

criteras are important for you to get promoted. So in a sense you kind of have to both then not just educate yourself but also educate your management and your leadership that those skills are important to be part of that and it becomes a really difficult cell and maybe at some point you might want to consider like is this the right organization for me to get promoted in but then again um everybody has uh their own priorities. Yeah that's really fascinating. I'm curious too, you you did a good job differentiating between organizational leaders and then entrepreneurial

leaders. And from my own experience, I find entrepreneurial leaders are almost like like an exponential version of the organizational where right like where and I'll see organizations once they hit 10 headcount like 10 headcount yes they have a block 100 headcount they have another block because they have trouble with that leadership side. So yeah, how do you practically when you're working with entrepreneurs in the space since this is your expertise? How do you help them work through that specifically when they don't have they're the top of the

organization, they're the founder, how are they going to get that exper leadership experience without breaking a few barrels or making a few people cry, you know? Yeah. Um well I guess I guess the right answer there you kind of screwed because once you're already at the top of the organization um there's not a lot of experience that you can get in the moment because now you have already the responsibilities of the leader. Uh you just have no time to train on them. You just kind of have to go ahead and do them and if you screw up that's your

training. Um now ideally if let's say you're starting a company and you're starting in a specific industry I would probably advise or coach on is um how can you get this experience before you jump into the company let's say if you're working full-time at a large company again can you start something on the side that takes 5 10 hours of your time so you can practice some of those elements of entrepreneurship because if you kind of quit a company called Turkey and start entrepreneurship

um journey you're probably a lot of your uh listeners and yourself I know that you're kind of assembling plane on the fly as you go from the parts which never were supposed to be part of the airplane um and the more of those parts which already come pre kind of prefab from your head thus from experiences the easier is for you to put those parts together because you know that they're already flight worthy. Um but the more things that you have to learn from you

the more it's it's like the more number of learning curves that you have to ascend and at some point you just hit a personal limit. Now having said that it's still good. It's still there is a room for improvement and growth. If you already have taken on a leadership role uh at organization uh and you're at the top you can find a mentor, you can find a coach which can help you navigate and perhaps transfer some of their own experiences and into the one which you're having right now in

order to grow. Uh and when I suggest uh somebody getting a mentor and there was always a question like well what kind of mentor should I get and also where would I find them? The best mentor usually is the one who is 2 three years ahead of you in the same exact business that you're doing in the same same exact role. Usually those ideals do not exist. So you have to figure out how to patch that missing experience out of one or two different mentors, maybe three mentors. um but

then to realize that how to extract their knowledge in the way that that is the most useful to you. The reason why I'm saying that it has to be super aligned because context of you in your company in your industry in your team and your product are so unique that if you go ahead and you try to listen to mentors who are outside of your industry or outside of let's say your age uh range or your experience range a lot of things will just not land in your context. So you're trying to match that context as much as possible

uh with your mentor and you're basically doing a patchwork between all the different men mentors to uh help you with all the different learning curves that you're going through. Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. I people are going to give advice based off of their own experiences. Yes. And so for in my world, there's people who do the consulting world, they do the big four accounting or they go corporate. And if I wanted to go write a book, let's say, I don't if I went to them for advice, none of them would say, "Go write the

book." You know, they would all tell me like, "Oh, no, you need to go in corporate and here's how you succeed in corporate." And so, you need someone who's been down that path a little bit in order to guide you, which makes sense. But I I want to dig a little more into the coaching side of things is because that's where you you excel is I see such a value in especially leaders who are moving fast and are young who need that extra leadership and are learning on the fly. How can you give them that space and give them kind of one of the biggest things I've seen

missing is maybe self-awareness. Yeah. Of hey, they might be pushing the team too hard. They might not be pushing hard enough. They might be overly compassionate, undercompassionate. they might need people to mitigate it. How do you create that space for them and diagnose it, if you will, and figure out how to help them through the process? That's that's a really good question. Um, but I would still put it into place of a maybe a third or fourth fifth follow-up question as far as uh founders figuring it out because I'm not a doctor. I'm not a prescription thing.

Like, nobody's going to tell them, "Hey, go see a coach for self-awareness." They're already at the top of the organization, right? Yeah. In a sense, they have to run and become self-aware themselves of at least some pain that they want to fix. And they no longer trust themselves at that this point to actually go through that. And that's usually becomes the core uh of uh beginning the relationship with a coach or a mentor or at least asking questions. And it could be

like, do all relationships uh are are all relationships filled with so much drama and so much friction as mine is with co-founders? Maybe for a week or two, you're thinking like, okay, this is a little bit dramatic than I'm usually used to. Um, we're kind of yelling at each other, but then again, like it's a very rash project. It's something new is being born. Like we're passionate about it. Maybe it's the right thing. But after maybe a month or two or three or four or five, you start questioning like, is this the actually right approach? Because I'm not feeling good

about it. I'm not I'm feeling pretty painful about it. I haven't heard too many stories about this kind of co-founder relationships happening. And then the question arises, what are other relationships out there? And perhaps there is some research done maybe some questioning of other maybe mentors maybe other founders and they're going to say well actually sounds like your relationship maybe is toxic right or perhaps some other label or unhealthy being slapped on it and then maybe the founders are thinking well how do I go

and solve this relationship right and this is when they realize that in order to solve for them they might need somebody who has gone that gone through that themselves or perhaps have coached others to how to go through themselves and that's becomes a moment of self-awareness and that's not necessarily self-awareness but also a relationship awareness I have a bad relationship with my co-founder others verified that it's this is not a great relationship three I need to figure out how to solve this now this is not a complete self-awareness yet but this is at least through the

lens of the problem that they're having now they start start seeking advice and they start seeking approaches that they help them guide to the right is then as part of the coaching as part of understanding we try we'll try to figure out what role do they play as part of the relationship with the founder now u there could be some examples and um in in in one of the examples that I share I was working with a co-founder who was completely burned out and wanted to quit

and he wanted to quit cold turkey and uh uh and we were trying to figure out how to process said, and I asked him the question, well, let's say you look at this situation 5 years from now and you quit cold turkey. What would you say you've gained from this relationship and said, "Well, experience." I'm like, "Okay, great. And what about your co-founder? What kind of things do you think they have gained? What kind of experience they have gained?" I'm like,

"Well, I guess a shitty co-founder who quit." All right. So like and you see the difference, right? You see the difference, right? And which of the scenarios would you like to attempt to fix or how would you like to fix it? And then we start introducing some moments of questions of growing of self-awareness how we are appearing in the communications and uh and communications uh conversations with our other people

in the team and thus we start monitoring more well if I'm doing this thing with my co-founder maybe I'm doing it with my spouse maybe I'm doing it with my employers employees maybe I'm doing it with my vendors and partners ers and it creates a small seed where the person starts growing their own self-aware. So that's why I'm saying your question is probably like a little bit later um in the process than the first question cuz I don't think um maybe there are maybe uh the world is a

crazy place like look at the market today right um tariffs yeah um what I don't think at any point somebody raises like hey I have no self-awareness I need to get some it usually comes from other paths uh which highlight perhaps inefficiency um or perhaps some light level of ignorance in certain scenarios which help a person uh improve. Yeah. What's what's really interesting that you brought up and was me think

makes me think of it almost like a superpower if you will of being able to feel enough pain and to recognize maybe I'm contributing to some of this and then having a coach and give to give you the space to process it. But then you need a coach that kind of gives you tough love. It can't be, "Oh, I'm sorry. I hear it sounds like you're going through a hard time. Like, let me help." You need someone to really point like, "What? How are you contributing to this mess? What's in your control?" Yeah. You can't control other people unless you want to go the mockabellian power dynamic route, which I normally don't recommend, but it's prevalent. That's

more organizational and nature, too. Um, but I think it'd be really interesting to explore how how could more people lean into self-awareness as a competitive advantage because if you are able to create that space and figure out where your relationships are off or where your people skills are off um then you can grow your business more that makes you a better leader, right? Yes. Yeah. And so how have you seen people have you how have you seen people grow and maybe you can give me a story a bit of someone who

came in and with a viewpoint of that was they were experiencing a lot of pain but that transformed into self-awareness and to growth for their business. So that was a great question. Um I I think so you mentioned that uh coach is there also to support like in sense to create the safety but also ask questions which I hope that uh self-awareness come up um I generally uh like to bring up self-awareness um

through analogies and one of the analogies let's say if you're driving a race car and you only have brake and gas paddles uh in in the wheel you will get somewhere eventually it. Um, but you will not know how fast you are going, what is your oil uh level, um, how what is your GPS navigator saying by all the different parameters that you're measuring for the race car? How strong is the wind? How what are other forces that are happening on your car? You have controls, right? You can say things, you can listen to things,

but what are the things that you're observing? What what what are the things that you're measuring as part of the relationship? How do you know something is going well? Um, one of the things uh, so I had to coach a person uh, who was uh, joined a role um, in in their uh, leadership position. They were coming from a large company into a smaller firm and they're saying like what's going on with these people? Why why there's they're they're not

listening to me at all? I'm telling them I'm telling them I'm telling you and they're not listening at all. I told them they have to do X Y and Zed. And through a series of questions, I asked them, well, what has your experience been in the past, right? How have you managed those kind of relationships? Well, what I told them exactly what to do and they kind of did it. Now, I told you like, well, did anything change between your previous job and the current one? Well, we have

talked through that and we realized, okay, the context has completely changed. Um, and what kind of talent or what kind of people are you working with now that you uh were not working before? And there's another revelation that uh they were able to observe is that they were working at larger companies. Larger companies can afford to pay a lot of money for very very educated people and and the smaller companies they don't have big budgets to pay for the people. So the people were different and so

while their management uh practice stayed the same they transferred over the context and the people changed uh whom they were managing and different approaches needed to happen perhaps additional training or perhaps the way that they were communicating the things that were being done or needed to be done to those people that had to change. So I'd say that moment of self-awareness helped a person uh to um triage and and also improve their approach in their new position. Okay. Now that that's really

interesting and it makes sense and so it's making me think of how like the flip side of the problem like you can also have situations where you're used to managing small unperforming teams and then as soon as you start managing high performers they have their own set of issues. They're really tough to manage on like career expectations, how do you actually retain them, all of that. Um, there's so much ambiguity here in flexibility. Is there a one-sizefits all model that people can work through

themselves to start d start figuring out this or are there books that you recommend or do you really think coaching is kind of the answer here? Um, everything that's a that's a good question. Um yes of course coaching is an answer to everything. Go to my website uh subscribe. So absolutely. Um so I I look at it more as another learning curve right in a sense. Uh we have can can anybody intelligent anybody

who can read learn all the things that coaches are doing? Absolutely. Now will they also be able to let's say get all the experiences that mentors uh get in order for to be useful? Absolutely. The question is like how long may it take? Let's say if you're looking for somebody with 20 years experience in aerospace, would you be able to get that 20 years by yourself and get to the same level? Absolutely. But it's going to take you 20 years. What if the information you're looking for is available from that

veteran uh in just one session and they're able to answer all your questions almost instantaneously? Now, how much time are you able to solve and be closer to the goal that you're trying to achieve? just like that. Um, same thing with coaches, especially coaches with experience in the industry they're coaching. They're able to navigate your issues in a much faster way um than you are because uh of the experience that they're bringing to the table and it is sometimes confusing and um and maybe a

little bit egoensitive to engineers. Um a lot of engineering problems are stacked on top of one another in a sense. There's has to be a foundation in order to that you have to learn and different level of complexity and expertise that you have to get in order to solve this problem. When it comes to world or management or leadership, a lot of things are actually less based on each other. They're more just memorizations in a sense. You have to remember a th00and 2,000 5,000 different just

management hacks in order to be successful. And pure memorization gets you where you want to be. Like a lot of those hacks are not even based on each other. Sometimes you hold the door, sometimes you don't hold the door. But which one is right? Depends on the context, right? And it depends of somebody who's been there and had the experience. Uh so and the person who has got the most experience, they're not necessarily perhaps maybe the most intelligent than you are compared to when solving engineering problems but but they have learned through their experience 5,000

hacks which help them be better leader um and the manager. Now is it again possible to learn? Is it possible to open chat GPT and answer all the question and ask them all the questions? Absolutely. Um, I personally haven't found it natural right now to communicate all of my story through text because when I communicate through voice uh or or communicate with another human being, I think just different types of interfaces get light up and uh we have a much better and closer interactions and plus there is also an element of trust

um in a sense that if you're speaking to uh chat to petique um it it's already processed advice. So in a sense you still have to go ahead and try it out and to see where it's going to work. Um and in coaching and mentorship example, you have another human being who can actually uh tell you for sure that that has worked uh for them. So a slightly uh different relationship. Um books wise absolutely there are different parts like uh one of my favorite self-awareness books is uh your

uh brain at work by David Rock. Um gives you different instruments of how to quote unquote query your own brain and how to navigate your thoughts. none of the woowoo stuff like very much uh straightforward um kind of uh learning. It's a book. Uh it's going to take you a couple weeks, maybe a couple days to learn and then you get to practice and it's an aspect of something that I've co I've been coaching to. There are many other books but all of that takes time. So in a sense, how do you know which book to read next? How do you know which

uh person to talk to next? How do you know which questions to ask? And the best way to answer that is leverage somebody who already has experience. Yeah, that's going to be your fastest way to multiply results. You brought up something really interesting there about AI and I kind of it would be fun to talk about for a second because I'm realizing it in my in my coaching practice, but also just in business is kind of this overuse of AI. And when I mean over, maybe overuse isn't the right word, more maybe more inappropriate use where they

don't realize the natural biases of the AI and so they kind of misuse it or it's like you using a hammer and when you needed, you know, a crowbar or something. Yeah. And so I'm curious on how how you're seeing it in practice or how maybe you're using AI to enhance your practice. For example, to get more specific is like I'll see people who query it on like maybe a discussion between two parties. Yes. And say and ask the AI what what went well in this

discussion or how could I I have done better and they don't realize that the AI is actually naturally programmed or naturally will defer to being very positive for the person who input the information. Yes. So it'll always bias to them being correct. Yes. And so then it just creates an echo chamber of their own thoughts. Yeah. Which is pretty dangerous. So yeah, I'm I'm curious on your thoughts on this and if you're seeing anything similar. Um yeah, u and I think there's lots of different examples and starts with marketing. Um like there's a lot of content if you look at LinkedIn, if you look on Twitter

or any other uh platforms where AI is being leveraged to generate a lot of content and a what what sometimes appears to be a genuine message easily could be detected if you see certain elements that it is AI. And for the person who perhaps is generating might not be fully aware that that's how being perceived and as you mentioned we're focusing a lot on self-awareness. That could be another thing that is really hard to measure.

Um it I think in the future we might be able to get to the place where AGI will be indistinguishable as talking to the person. But it's as we're talking to people, as we're talking to computers, it's very important to know, as you mentioned, biases, right? And those biases could be the training data. It could be the way that they're trained to reply back, whether they're focusing on you as the user more, if they're focusing on the problem too, it's a tool. So says, how can you use this tool the most effective? And I

think each tool has its own bucket of where it's really been train well trained on. If you are asking AI to analyze your conversation and give you our honest uh analysis of what you have said is it's a good idea to verify whether was AI specifically trained on the type of conversations that you're having because it will always give you an answer. This is one thing which AI is really horrible at is saying I don't know otherwise it will always tell you

exactly what it thinks it is even if it's absolutely wrong. So you have to verify that it was specifically trained on the subjects that you're uh talking about. Um then um you need to also figure out what is this thing really good at. Um one thing which identify AI as being really good at is idea generation. Um for some reason the ways our brains are organized, it's really hard for me to come up with 15 different things I can do at a party. If you ask me right now, it's just going to take me

a pause to figure it out, imagine, and kind of come up with the list. AI can come up with this like like that. Also, if you ask it a thousand things to do at the party, it also will come up like this. So, for idea generation in a context, let's say you're writing a book and you're writing a plot and you say like, "Hey, there's people at the farm and they just got there from space. What are different plots directions that the plot can take?" it will give you a thousand different versions which I don't think any human can do uh on the spot uh and then you can iterate and be

creative. So you're not spending time uh investigating all the different options. You actually can dive in into one of those and be uh filling it out uh with ideas uh yourself um with a prompt. And I also noticed that um if you're talking to the AI um sometimes it's also a good idea like what questions should you be asking in order for you yourself to explore what you're exploring? Um so let's say um if you're exploring new space, if you're exploring coaching,

hey, I'm going to talk to the coach. So what questions a good question should I ask a coach to figure out whether this coach is good or not? Um but when it start um and then it it kind of you become the the filter on the quality of the questions that um AI is going through but to analyze and to kind of take at heart any answer that it's giving you without understanding its biases as you mentioned it it's very difficult. Uh it's a very useful tool. So again to summarize it's very useful

tool as long as you understand what it is really really good at without any issues and if there are issues how do you mitigate those uh when you interact with it. Yeah and I think that's a great call out is so many people are using the tool at least that I'm saying but they actually don't understand what it was trained against or if it's even relevant to the fact set that they're trying to apply. Yeah. And even more interestingly, I like your answers. They It will always give an answer, which is a problem, right? It's just like that friend who's always going to give you

like, "Yeah, we should go." Yeah, that's Yeah, it's 7 o'clock right now. It's like, you didn't even check your watch. Are you sure it's actually 10? Yeah. So, so very helpful. This has been awesome. I would love to talk to you more, but I know we're wrapping up on time. I want to respect your time. any any big piece of advice to maybe let's say a tech founder that's trying to take their organization and hitting that roadblock from leadership like if you had a 10-second or 30 second platform any big takeaway and then after that I would love just to hear where

people could learn more about you and what you're focusing now on in your career and your business it'd be great to just share with the audience. Yeah. Yeah. Um I think anytime we're hitting a problem that we've never uh faced before uh if let's say in this particular case a leadership um it's really hard to label and describe it to anybody else. Um like what is that? So I think the first step that for anybody hitting a problem is useful is finding somebody who can give you that space to talk through the problem and help perhaps not

even diagnose but label it in a way that now helps you communicate it to others of finding help. It's the same thing as you're searching for a bug issue. you type you take in the error message and you put in Google or you putting into chat GPT and then it labels you like oh I think that's the kind of issue that is same same thing uh with uh when you we're facing leadership issues either talking to somebody or even talking to AI it will give you some idea of what the form of a problem you're solving because then you can ask hey I have X

problem who is there really right person to actually address those um so I would say like labeling and triaging that problem would one of the first steps I would consider. Okay, that's great. That make that makes sense. And having someone help you frame that if you don't have that experience yourself so valuable. And then and what are you working on now that's making you excited? What's what's this next year that look like for you? Things, big projects, anything that you'd like to share with everybody? Yeah. Um uh super excited right now with growing my practice. Um I think I'm finally uh

hitting the stride and uh super excited about all the different conferences that I get to go to uh and share my developments with other engineers. And as we're talking on this different podcast, always like in my head uh different approaches uh or analogies or frameworks arise that I'm very excited to share uh with everyone that I'm speaking. Yeah. Well, great. Well, I'll put all your information, you know, down below. And I really appreciate you taking the time today and hopefully we get to talk more. And for anyone watching, please explore if you're looking for a great uh

executive coach, founder coach, especially in the technology space. I couldn't recommend you more. So, thank you so much. Of course, Evan.