Leadership Secrets From a Coast Guard Commander Turned Executive Coach

leadership isn't rank it's not title it's not Authority the youngest person in the office could be the real leader the best leaders don't command they don't control they Inspire and if you think rescuing your team makes you a great leader you might just be setting yourself up for failur so leaders are not by rank the youngest person in the office could be the leader it's not about directing people it's about inspiring people aren't interested in being the victim in your story they are the hero of their story when we win my

team did it when we lose it was my fault right it was a lot easier to go from chocolate covered raisins to dooo than it was from Dudu back to chocolate covered raisins welcome to ambition aligned the podcast that breaks down leadership decision-making and high performance here's the truth leadership isn't about rank it's not about titles and it's definitely not just about competence the real key influence today we're cutting through the noise with Shan mcculler a former Coast Guard commanding office turn executive coach he's LED teams in high stick

environments navigating political mindfields and learned firsthand why leadership isn't about control it's about trust in this episode we're exposing the biggest mistakes leaders can make the ship from competence to influence and the unexpected lesson that just may change how you lead and yes we're even going to talk about chocolate cover raisins power dynamics and why sometimes the best move is letting others lead themselves if you're ready to level up your leadership hit subscribe so you don't miss an episode and something in today's conversation resonates with you drop a comment below

I'd love to hear your take so what are some issues that uh leaders are facing today that you know I guess it depends on how you look at it if you look at what issues are they having within themselves growing into leadership or what uh what issues are they having with you know in the workforce in the in the economy you know and the industry that they're in so uh I think if I look at what the the uh leaders that I've seen struggle with most there there's kind of

two things there's the they want to keep doing the last job they were doing you know and that's a struggle for them really understanding what's the what's the new role about and how can they do that job and they're trying very hard but they're just trying to do their last job harder or there's this thing you you know I don't know if you've had children but the terrible twos so that the terrible twos are all about when a kid decides that they have their

own free will and so once they understand that they are separate from their mother and their father and they can do what they want then all of a sudden they think they're responsible for everything they can they think they make the wind blow and they move the curtain you know and they can do whatever and that's very that's distressing you know for a person for for a human so I do see leaders times hit that point in their career where they think well now that I'm you know fill in the blank I can do anything and

that's uh that's a tough spot to be into so from the other side you know what what sort of things are they running into in the workforce it's you know um work from home you know since covid there there's so many great things about working from home right I think uh um there's also some bad things about working from home so that's a tough one you know how do you especially for young

people how do you ensure you're bringing them along when uh um when you've not had years of experience working with this person you know and so anyway am I getting it the answer to your question de no this is it's it's you're you're really hitting it and I think what's an interesting perspective and I'd be curious on is you know as a commanding officer previously in the Coast Guard did she have any experience with did you have employees that were working remotely at the time or was everyone in

person and if they were working remotely how how can people lead their teams when there is this remote environment yeah so not so much in the Coast Guard I mean I did have people that work remotely from me but they were still working in an office theoretically uh but when I left the Coast Guard I left in uh 2020 and I moved over to Homeland Security where I was in charge of uh Financial systems

for the Department that year we were rolling out a brand new Financial system to TSA and so and everyone went home so I have said before and I believe that it is true um we would not have been successful with that roll out had we not all gone home the amount of work that you could get done in that environment from you know without having to move from office to office without having to

move from building to building you know everyone was expected to be present on on the U Zoom call or teams call or whatever it was and you could move from meeting to meeting in the Press of a button and you know you could get meetings all day so it was overwhelming and we burned some people out but it was also we got a lot done so it turned into and and this I've seen this before in my career when people really believed in what they're doing and uh were committed

to getting through a hard problem and getting to success my job as a leader was really to make sure they weren't burning out it wasn't to motivate them it wasn't to get them on the on the phone or make sure they were doing their work it was to make sure they were taking time for themselves and make sure they were you know watching a funny show every now and then you know trying to get get some some Joy you know get a little uplift into their life so um I know that it's changed a bit and uh and so you know in that in that Sprint there

it was it was critical for us we could do training we did all the training for all the people in TSA on uh on this new system virtually so wow you know it it worked out it um it it we used it to our advantage um but uh there are certainly drawbacks and so learning how to manage those uh was something uh really big and and the people I worried about the most honestly

were the long-term effects on the young people so you've got these young kids that are in their you know first or second job and they don't get the conversation in the hall you know they don't get the let's talk over the water cooler you know uh oneon-one it's uncomfortable for them to call me directly and and I would not intentionally make time to reach out to all of them and so it was how do you how do you um how do you teach them what it

is to be part of the team and teach them your values and your you know your the the your I guess work ethic you know the way you treat each other um it's much harder to to do virtually so I think that uh they're they were working on some plans to implement a more intentional way of of bringing new people along in the virtual world I guess that's it seems

like a lot of people are coming back to work now so maybe that will be overcome by events yeah it's no I mean it is still fascinating there's this area right now where and and I didn't realize until you just mentioned it you have a very unique perspective of there's some companies that are hey I'm full remote now we're seeing in the government hey I'm full especially federal government hey full back to office I know but then there's a lot of companies like where I'm at Google it's hybrid where you might have some people in some offices

some people are remote and there's been pros and cons to both to any model um and so I'm curious you being on both sides of it what what were the biggest pros and what were the biggest cons you saw from the perspective of a leader yeah uh if if I had a a company that was large enough to uh Implement a policy like this it would be a hybrid model because there are benefits to those being home and not losing time

driving and into work and coming back you know um the space you can save by maybe only only cycling through 25% of your Workforce on any given day you don't have to have 100% uh space for 100% of your employee so um I would do a hybrid certain days you would have your teams in the office to get ADV to take advantage of some of that face Toof face time and then some days you would be better to work from home how much of

each would probably depend on the type of work you were doing uh I I think being isolated all the time is not good you know they did some studies that showed people after having worked at home for an extended period of time were less happy than they were before when they were having to go into the office as frustrating as people are you know they beat the alternative and so um having having that interaction is

important I think so hybrid hey and for that hybrid model I think what you're saying too is for the more Junior folks making sure they're in the same office with some more senior folks am I reading that right right yeah that's right yeah yeah you it's um there's a part of mentorship and and um leadership that

is innate maybe it it's it's not something you do it's just who you are and for people to be able to see that and see it in each other is kind of irreplaceable in the virtual world you know there there's a way you carry yourself and the way uh so leaders by the way are not by rank necessarily in my mind like the youngest person in the office could be the leader you know uh but that's

harder to sense and to see uh and an opportunity missed for that kid who if they are uh not able to um demonstrate what they're capable of in that uh in in real life yeah that makes sense so positional Authority interestingly isn't that big to you even that military You' get the sense get the sense otherwise but to you

leadership's more about your ability to change or what how would you define that there's uh there leadership is one of those very very slippery words is yeah yeah sorry yeah it's I uh I remember the the first time someone told me to be a leader I was nine years old in my toy bow football coach is yelling be a leader you know I had no idea I just tried harder I you know what are you supposed to do and it seems like

that feeling every time you get a new job it's be a leader well what is it to be a leader you know but in my mind what I'm talking about when I say that kid could be a leader it could it's just in the way uh they carry themselves it's in the way that they treat other people it's in their attitude you know people who lift other people up are leaders and other people are drawn to that person because of the way they are and so the way they

choose to go about their daily lives and their their professional world so that that influence um of is a is a form of leadership it it doesn't replace the responsibility of rank you know you know the the manager or the person who's in charge is in charge and is responsible and they are the leader you know in in another sense of that word but that doesn't mean that you know people without positional Authority

cannot also EX Express leadership do you have any examples or do any does anyone come to mind you don't have to say names but have any stories that come to mind of where you saw that done really well maybe someone I think I'm thinking of this too where someone really Junior comes in and and you go look in the room and say wow that person's actually the leader here yeah yeah it's um I think of u i a a very young man that uh worked uh in

my director in my last job he was just uh the most positive uh person in in all scenarios very professional he wore three-piece suits all the time in bow ties and he he was just a pleasant human and and anyone with a problem he was there to help you know and he was volunteered to do everything and so he just had this energy about him that made

people want to be around him and made people want to try harder and to me that's the essence of real leadership is it's not about directing people it's about inspiring people and so a person can be inspiring regardless of their position in the organization yeah well and that's it's it's fascina Ty that back to the remote environment did you ever observe anyone

taking leadership in in that kind of world or how can someone how can someone Thrive if they did yeah it's it's it's different I'm sure that I'm sure that it is um it is doable it's but it would require a different kind of skill set you know someone who's who's uh again it's how they make other people feel in that virtual environment versus you in the in the in

the real world in real life so and I guess that we shouldn't say that you know cuz this is real it's just it just happens to be it's just not in person so uh so you know how how can a how can a person come across as generous and uh and capable and energetic and positive in a virtual environment you know it's in the tone of their voice it's in the way that they speak it's in what they say and when

they say it and uh the choices they make and how they treat other people that uh that allow them to sort of Express that leadership well you know it brings me an interesting an interesting thought I'm curious this this happened to you but I I recognized something when I was in Co I went through Co and I was managing a team at Google and I recognized something similar to you a lot of people said you know people worked less during

covid I didn't experience that I actually had the opposite people burn themselves out because you could work 247 and we were hyperproductive with a small team but I think one of the interesting aspects was when you actually met those people in person after working online and you'd be like Oh I thought this person was short and they're actually really tall you know you know I mean and I was just making me think about there is an element I don't know if it's after electronically yet of

finding personality for some reason finding personality and person is always a little different and I I think to your point of those locker room conversations or not locker room like water cooler conversations of cracking a joke after having a serious meeting can be a really element of someone's personality I'm wor I'm curious did you have any experiences like that too oh yeah um I remember one of This brilliant brilliant woman that was our uh sort of an internal auditor um and uh

she was you know I had my my screens were always kind of above ey Lev and she was always you know so smart so sharp so on point and uh and I was used to looking up and and you know hearing her speak and when I met her she's like this B you know do you have a taller sister but yeah no she it was it was interesting when you finally got to meet these people well you know they didn't the camera does things to you that makes

you look different uh for for some people more than other yeah yeah okay good I'm not alone I'm not alone so Shane I'm really curious from you're making some big transitions in your life from going from a very very high level um to making a transition to the Department of home and security and now making this next transition to being an executive coach can you can you mff me through what's it like like to not a lot of people make these big decisions when

they already had such a successful career so maybe walk me through what's going through your head with these decisions and yeah yeah so the leadership uh your professional growth you know we talked about how at each level it's different and you have to learn that level to move to move to the next level you know uh and so the things that you have to do to do

your job well and to be of use at each level are different and so we've all got different things that our nature uh likes there's things that give us energy and they're things that take our energy and when you as you as you go up the chain you know I I loved managing my team you know sort of the what they call the down and end now I know I didn't know this then but as you get farther up the chain you go more up and out right

and so you're dealing with what do you mean by that what can you explain that a little bit sorry that's really interesting yeah so so um when you start off as a leader you've got a small team you've got a you know a a small Division and your your job is to you know you learn that job and you learn that well it's not my job to be the boss it's my job job to bring all these amazing people that know how to rebuild a a jet

engine I will never know I bring them everything they need to do their job right that's the value that I add I can't do their job but I can get them the resources I can get them the processes and you know I can give them what they need to do their job and then I can take care of them I can look out for them and fight for what's best for them right uh I just need to ear their trust you know that's what I need to do well as you go up that group gets bigger and in a way it gets smaller because

you're instead of managing a group of you know 30 people you've really got six leaders under you that you're managing right and so it's still kind of the same but what you learn is you can Inspire these people you can they can uh really believe in what they're doing they can give their whole heart and soul to it they can achieve things that have never been done before but you have a peer over here that wasn't happy about it right so

for some reason they said oh mcculler and that team will never do this right and now you do it and they they have to find a reason why uh you cheated or it wasn't as good as everybody thought or so as you as you go up the your stakeholders are no longer your team they're like everyone who can see this who's involved with this right and as you get even higher up it's it's you

know one disgruntled Congressional staffer can you know uh snatch defeat from the jaws of Victory just by uh by with a bad word or two about the project that that you just uh delivered so you've got to make sure you become the chief storyteller making sure that everyone understands what you're doing that everyone is on board uh and that was exhausting to but you know even

people who have really disappointed you maybe have people you might not like uh you know but this is this is not Middle School you don't get to only eat lunch with the people you think are cool right so you've got to go and and find uh find people that are not rooting for you and make them feel like they're part of your success right so that's exhausting I'm

I'm a little bit introverted and I'm uh I have a hard time faking you know and so that became you know one of the things that was really exhausting and so being good at that level some people are gifted like that you know it's this as you I liked it where my um competence was the most important thing and the network was maybe down

here well as you as you get older your competence becomes less and less important and your network and your ability to influence people is really what you're there for and so if you like that man you get all of it to you you want if you're an extrovert you know and you get energy from dealing with with folks then then that's that's your that's your thing if you want to make a spreadsheet or write a paper you don't want to be uh an executive

so so that's I think that's what I mean by that so up and out is more these are not people in my chain of command and so it's very intangible the connection they have to your success or failure but you've got to see it and you've got to engage with those people and bring them in uh especially the naysayers you know ask them why do you think this is going to fail what do you think we should do differently and have them feel like part of your success instead of you know get

them invested somehow so that's that's what I mean by up what if if you don't mind one of the ways I can tell you already you're just we a top class leader and people are lucky to listen to this is you didn't take I asked you about leadership and you never mentioned when you're at the higher levels managing your team right like you you you trusted your team there's a degree of trust there you had good people you weren't worried about their jobs it's more unblocking them so they could actually have an impact and that

that's what you're going up and out right am I reading that right like going up and out you're actually not managing or in the details anymore it's just making sure your team can move is that right yeah so so I think of leadership and management as two different things to be to be good at your job you've got to have both you can't if you're all one and and not enough of the other you're you're going to fail your people or or you're going to fail someone and so um yeah as you as you get more senior

you've got to give the people that you are leading the opportunity to manage their own teams you know and so that gets into the I don't need to do their job for them anymore you know I need to give them the systems and and at that point really by the end of my career I wasn't giving them the systems I was making sure they they gave them right so what what are the systems you're going to use to answer this you

know where do we get where do we get those how do we create them you can't just just reinvent the wheel every every time this problem comes up how do we system systematize that uh and uh set up boundaries for people so heard this uh in in grad school and it's one of one of my favorite sayings is that uh you can't be creative without boundaries and uh it took me it took me a while to get that uh the teacher that

that told me that was uh a very a very flamboyant you know uh colorful guy and it was just overwhelming the whole the whole show you know of his class and smartest one of the smartest guys I ever met Steve Tomlinson I think but anyway and and it finally hit me it's like well if I if I just said Devon be creative you know it's too much right

it's too much if I said Devin write me a play uh and it's three acts it's got to be an hour long and it's in a high school on their stage their stage is set up at a uh an apartment in New York City and you've got you know three actors you can start to create from that right you get a million ideas already just thinking about what you could do with that so so you can't you you can't

really be creative without boundaries that's probably too absolute but you get what I'm saying yeah definitely I imagine most people can't start businesses or have trouble starting their own businesses or being self-motivated but they can hold down a job right they can hold down a job as soon as you give them something to do people will get it done but if you give them infinite possibilities it's challenging or if you play chess it's not fun with a three-year-old who doesn't play by the rules right yeah like what are you doing you can only play for so long

so right right yeah yeah yeah very helpful so after so is that what made that first transition from being at the top level so leadership uh to going to the homeland security was wanted to try something different get more in the technical details or yeah what what drove that and well so the decision to leave the Coast Guard uh back in 2020 yeah um we we have an uper out system in the Coast Guard so

everyone the commandant of the Coast Guard on down you either you know uh if you don't quit you get fired you you age out the top and so I aged out so at at 30 years I was uh I I was released on my own recognizance I got paroled so so that's why I left it was uh it was a time that was I had reached the uh the end of my allotted time and

you have to do that in the the military to give opportunities for those underneath you you know to to move up and so uh that is just just the way it works Consulting audit is the same thing they have timeout Partners so the next batch can come in right I didn't know that really yeah yeah they have age limits 50 55 you got to get out so the next ones can come in or else people are going to start throwing over the leadership you can't let everyone work at the bottom too long right yeah yeah I

did I didn't know they did that yeah that's the same thing well I guess I'm not I'm not questioning at all 30 years and you had and thank you for your service and you so much there not everyone gets that far um by any means why why'd you take something else why'd you go to the homeland security I guess what drove you to take on that mission yeah so I actually um I worked through this book uh called uh what color is your parachute it was it's very

difficult think of uh my whole professional career right I really made one decision join the Coast after that almost all the decisions are made for you where are you going to live what are you going to do what are you going to wear I mean there's a book that says this is what you wear in every situation and there's a store that only sells the stuff in that book so it's it's about as easy as it can be right and so you can

focus so you know people find that smothering but I found it liberating because it so much stuff you don't have to think about I can just think about doing the best job I can do at this task so um whatever task they've given me so when you get to now you're in your 50s you've really got maybe 10 years of of meaningful work that you want to do you got one or two career choices that you can make and you have zero experience

making that choice you know it was it's very intimidating it's very stressful it's uh you know I mean it's not the end of the world but it is it it really kind of weighs on you so this book helped me it it walked you through a a maybe not perfect but a format for structuring those decisions so I've got kind of an engineering mind I like spreadsheets I like uh you know logic I don't mind

making emotional choices I know your choices are all emotional but when there's too many factors you your emotions get confused so it really helped me divide it down into okay where do I want to live you know what are things that I like about a place to live what are things I don't like about a place to live what's my you know where do what do I want to do what kind of work have I enjoyed in the past what have I not enjoyed in the past you know and I literally wrote out this job like

I I'd love to be involved with you know financial management program program management in the it Arena and I would like to keep my career moving forward and you know keep moving up like to be able to make a big difference something that I care about and all of those things just sort of fell in my lap the uh the person uh who uh who had my job moved on and they were looking for someone and they called and I was able

to compare it in all the different you know ways I knew what I wanted and so it it fit me perfectly so you know I I did have other opportunities I thought about Consulting I thought about um Contracting you know I thought about a number of different things and but this one really fit everything that I wanted to do because I was I still wanted to have skin in the game I didn't want to be an outside consultant just throwing you know Rec

commendations over the wall and you know good good luck um I really wanted to be uh um producing those outcomes for for people so that's sort of what led me to that decision but you had to do the self work right of figuring out and that's not easy after you had 30 years of your career Playbook now you're going figuring out what you want and I guess why I'm saying that is if that

opportunity came to you without that self-work would it have been as clear no not at all and and that's one of the things I hope to do with my coaching practice is really help people with those career changes at that phase you know where you really don't you don't have enough Runway to make some bad decisions you know you really want to figure out the best way you can what what what

what inspires you what excites you what's going to be a great fit for you and what's a process for doing that more than just let me sit with this for a day and wait for some preference to arise you know um and and so I wish that I had had a little more help that book was super helpful but really you know walking through doing that work uh with someone I think would have been super helpful and you

know you talk about leaders um and and what are some of the problems that they face uh it's very difficult to ask for help in fact I you really that's that's a double edged sword there you know so uh finding a coach um I wish I had had one I never had one I think uh I think that that could make a huge difference in the speed with which you make adaptations

and and the quality of your decision making that's that's really fascinating to think about doing the self-work your book was the coach you coached yourself through that situation but if you had a coach through it maybe it would have been an easier path and now just jumping forward you've done the homeland security you're taking that next stage of yeah going into coaching is that so is that the main driver what are you hoping

to get out of that or there's a door behind you who's walking through that door that you're coaching and what's what's I thought somebody was really coming in no if if someone was walking in who are you hoping to help out there oh it's uh I can see the people that I've been right and and I I hope and suppose that there are more but people that have big decisions they don't have a lot of time

for themselves they um have everything they need they're successful capable people but they have not taking the time and they don't have someone that's both invested and not invested right in in a way that uh that they can be honest back and forth and and get some good input uh so I see retiring senior

military leaders you know who are trying to make that career change I see new uh Executives and uh who are trying to make that jump from being uh a senior leader to an executive leader and make that move from down and in to up and out and understanding that Network and their stakeholders and how to communicate with them a little better um

so I I mean I think I could I think I think it would be cool to help uh Small Business Leaders owners you know I just I don't know I I feel I the more I learn about coaching the more I understand that the people that I know the best is probably going to be harder hardest for me to coach because the whole point of coaching is that you try not to lead you try not to diagnose you really let people tell

their own story let people come to their own conclusions and you know let let people rescue themselves you know and so that's that's where it's powerful you know I um I have this story uh that I tell so I this will take a minute but it's a pretty good story go ahead go ahead yeah so 90y old man falls down a uh stairwell

on a cruise ship in the Caribbean I'm deployed down in the Caribbean helicopter pilot we get called it's about 2:00 in in in the morning we get called to go met back the guy so we go pick him up and we take him to uh the closest airport with a Runway and we're we we offload him and we're sending him over to get on the jet this guy's old uh he's in shock he's in an

immense amount of pain he's uh he's uh not in a good not having a good day all right it's by now it's like 4 o'clock in the morning and as they're getting ready to load him onto the the airplane he he gets all frantic he's been pretty calm but he gets he starts waving his hands and stuff flight M from our crew comes over plugs his headset in and says sir this guy won't get in the plane until he shakes your hand so so we we shut the plane you know

shut the helicopter down get out and go shake this guy's hand and I can't I don't remember his face really but I remember his hand and how he held on to it you know and um and and you know then he holds my hand he gets on the plane and he he goes on they take him to the hospital he he lives he that's fine I didn't I didn't know it at the moment I mean it was a it was a neat know it was a meaningful experience right you just that guy you think about

the life that he had lived and the things that he had been through you know the Great Depression World War II the greatest generation and the the amount of toughness and the integrity and the you know the values of that that person that was meaningful that always that sat with me for a long time and it wasn't until a couple of years ago I read this book um building a story brand uh Donald Miller have you heard this no

no I haven't oh it's it's a great book and uh it's it's supposed to be a marketing book but the the the main thrust of the story of the book is people don't want to be rescued right people aren't interested in being the victim in your story they are the heroes of their story right so everybody's living in their own movie and they're they're the star

they're the hero of their own movie so what I think about that old man and I can three times in 30 years in hundreds of rescues where someone said Thank you right that guy was one there were two boys that were made to come and say thank you as punishment because they had stole a they stole a kayak and took it out into a storm and we had to go get them uh and

then one one guy was a rich guy on a yacht uh that that came in and thank the whole crew but but anyway so when you look back on reading that book and looking back on it going yeah you know people don't like being rescued when you they're having the worst day of their life when when you show up and you know to to bail them out they don't that's not uh that's not who they see themselves as somewhat helpless you know so

um that that has always uh no hasn't always it became a very important part of my uh view of of leadership and and interaction and now coaching which is teach people to save themselves don't try to save them right you can go in and and have all the answers but if you just give them the answers they're going to be like all right dude you know thanks a

lot have a good day but if they fight through their own internal blocks and find those answers for themselves they're going to they're going to own them and the ownership is key wow do you see those people that thanked you did they take a bit of ownership in that in that rescue or how do you how do you view that that's really powerful yeah so I think the the three that did you know one was the old guy right and that was just his he had lived Beyond his need to be the hero he had already

so the two lessons I take from that that man was one get over yourself you know believe that you are the hero you don't have to be the hero every day you've lived 90 years you are comfortable with with who you are and that your your selfworth and it's and it's not only okay it's good to share the the glory right uh and uh two is this how rare

that is how rare it is that uh people are comfortable enough with themselves to to uh to recognize that it's okay that we needed to be rescued you know it's not I'm I'm not a a uh I'm I'm not a uh Damsel in Distress because I I I had a bad day so um so so so there's that guy there's the two kids that got punished and were made to come

and and say we're sorry and and then the one rich guy he made a whole show out of it he he came and and like brought food and uh and reenacted his whole well you didn't I didn't look like this the last time you saw me and he put on all of his old tore up clothes and and he got in his raft and uh he he did it uh he did it big you know and so again very you know he his selfworth was not challenged by the fact that he had to be rescued so

there's something there there's something that's good for a leader to know that you know when when we win they did it you know my team did it when we lose it was my fault right that is that has to be the way that you operate right or people won't trust you anyway I think I'm rambling not at all no I love this and I I'm just trying to you I can't tell you that you just tied so many dots for me where a chief

of staff in my role uh I was a chief of staff for my the controllership organization at Google cloud and for a couple of years and one of the most challenging things about the position was I get pulled in when people weren't moving fast enough I'd be coming to rescue and I I'm a I don't like to brag but I I get along with people like I I I'm pretty socialable and I I understand I'm pretty human and in that role people stop liking me pretty fast

if you're the person coming into to do rescues I was shocked it's very counterintuitive and you don't realize it unless you're in the position and and those stats really just brought it home for me that I thought I was helping them like hey you guys are going slow I'm here to help you out I could but I was actually their enemy I was like whoa we don't need help that's a common theme that people say it's like why are you here we don't need the help yeah and it sounds like you experienced that in The Most Extreme Ways oh yeah even in you know personal life people may allow you

to rescue them but they will resent it later if they you know if they have no choice they will allow themselves to be rescued maybe even there's some who want to be and you need to look out for them uh but it's say uh you know in relationships I've found the same thing it is if you think you're rescuing them you will eventually resent them if they think you're rescuing them they will eventually resent you so there's

something there I'm sure that there are studies that I haven't looked up but it's I I think that it's true and it's something that um maybe I don't have the words exactly right but there is this resistance to to being rescued and that's so powerful why you're going in coaching right is you see that natural element of Being Human it's just we our attachment to our egos or however you want to say it and there's the wise old man there that

recognized like hey you know I you guys are helping me out and they actually gave you credit where credit was due and it's strange that that was so rare but you taking that element of recognizing people have egos recognizing that there needs to be a safe space but and and working with it rather than against it like Consulting and Advising a lot of the times I've been the consultant it sounds like you've been in that role too where here's the thing you should do yeah and here it's cost you $3 million to make this fancy report you pay the

firm three million bucks yeah they never do it no one ever follows into the de no one no one wants to hear what they're doing wrong right so right right yeah yeah I remember the joke used to be um when I was in the Coast Guard and we would hire these Consultants it was a consultant is someone what you ask them what time it is and they ask to borrow your watch and so that's good and well now I look back

on it and I go well why the hell would you be asking them what time it is if you've got a what and I think that's I think there's something there too right it is uh a lot of people don't realize they've got to watch you know and so as a coach you can just say um what does your watch say right what what time do you think it is yeah and that's gonna help build that person up and breathe less resentment

through the process right you're not coming in to save them you're teaching them and helping them along the way to save themselves absolutely I mean it's the whole for me the whole idea is to increase self-awareness and increase personal agency they their recognition that they can they can change more they can affect more they can do more we can all do more than we normally think we can or you you said something interesting earlier I don't know if you could elaborate just for a little bit

you said the person walking through the door and correct me if I'm Mis stating this but you said the person walking through the door would be someone who you essentially you coaching versions of yourself right things that you've been through you feel like you could help those people through could you give me an example or like maybe go back until any of your experience of wow this is when a coach really would have been valuable to me and how you managed that yeah

um I mean you know we talked about retiring from the military that would have been helpful as a new executive that would have been helpful to really you know moving from the military into a civilian position where you go into meetings with people and they they're not wearing their resume on their shirt you know you know like military so yeah so that would have been helpful you know I think to your point where would it where would it have been most

pivotable pivotal in my earlier career um so the Coast Guard has c130s okay it's a it's a 4 engine cargo plane and we've got we've had 30 to 40 of those for 50 years and so we normally because we operate in a weird environment we're not flying and dropping bombs and stuff

but we're low overwater which is is very corrosive to the airplanes so uh we have a different need to maintain the structures of those airplanes so we but we had never built a hanger large enough for us to do our own overhaul on these airplanes so we were Contracting it out so at one point it was job to be responsible for these overhaul and so we kept trying to get

the Coast Guard to pay for an overhaul pay for I mean pay for a new hanger it's like $25 million or something and this was 20 years ago and it never it kept failing it kept failing it kept failing and so we came up with and I say we it was really not me it was the team came up with this idea where we could have we could put a contract in place that would through some creative Contracting result in us

having a hanger built on our facility that we could do our own overhauls in it would just be using contract labor right so instead of instead of government employees we would be using contractor employees but we would be giving them all of the work cards we would be managing all of the work doing all the engineering so we built this we built this hanger um I it's this is when I started to

learn about up and out right I thought we just needed to get it done right I've got my team I told my boss we're getting it done so you can lead follow or get out of the way because we're rolling down the road this thing is we're getting it done um so we got like I want to say $10 million from Elizabeth Dole you know in North Carolina to build the ramp and stuff and so it was big news it wound up in the newspaper the commandant of the Coast Guard who's you know about

as far away from me at that time as Could Be Imagined he reads about it in the newspaper he is furious because he didn't know about right and so now he's angry the people underneath him that he's angry at they're now Angry and so when we had the grand opening and all of these you know from the commant on down had replied Lo Martin was all of their senior leaders sh was there uh I was a

commander which is an' 05 which is not that big a deal I was the senior Coast Guard guy there everybody else bailed out the morning of the event when it was going to be uh uh when when we were having the grand opening and this is where I started get the idea that even if you're successful if important people aren't happy about it right then it's going to decrease the value of what you've

done so now all these great people that did all this amazing work get this fantastic thing done don't get the credit that they deserve uh the building goes up we it's it's very successful and uh and once that common do left and the next one came in they started bringing Congressional delegations down and showing how great we were doing and stuff so it worked out but I think if I had had a coach you know during that period that would have helped me

understand about a Communications plan right like your Communications plan can't just be I told my boss and literally when the Common's yelling at me uh I said I told my boss sir you know that's dumb it's so much bigger than that you why didn't I get it in the paper 6 months earlier right before it was already built uh what why did I not make sure all of these stakeholders were engaged and on board um you know and and

I think having a coach would have helped me see that and and help me learn that lesson faster with fewer lumps and bruises yeah that sounds like a heroine experience I'm sorry you went through it right about the time the news article came out they they had one corner of the building up and we got a Micro Burst until the thing blew down and so now it's all this Twisted Metal and and oh I

just thought oh yeah yeah when I left they gave me a picture of that Twisted building you know uh but then it we got it built and uh and it's it they built another copy of it now it's doing great oh good you got it reminds me what is I I learned this too in the chief of staff role not building anger is nothing nearly as important but uh I I want to tell my boss I enough projects where I hey bosses am I working with manure here like it doesn't matter if I spread the

manure how well I spread it I'm still going to stink at the end of the day right like can we make sure maybe give someone else the bag this time you you want me you want me to just hold this until it sprouts some flowers or something what am I yeah exactly yeah I learned that lesson quick so now sometimes it's better to say no it doesn't matter how bad that garden needs to get built sometimes you just got to say maybe I'm not the right person to hold the mid this time right it's then that's a decision thing so I have a so my a daughter she was about 18

months old and now she's a she's a PhD and in neuroscience and teaches at Harvard and it's one thing to think your kids are going to be smarter than you it's another one when they prove it but when she was 18 months old she wasn't that bright and uh and so she was eating raisins chocolate covered raisins right and uh and and uh she dropped them they're all in the carpet right and this is this shag carpet and so we start

picking up the the uh uh the raisins out of the carpet and so she's picking them up and eating them and I said no no don't eat that no dooo I said it was dooo big mistake dooo and so then she starts crying right and just losing her mind because she thinks she's eating do and so I'm like no no no it's not dooo it's not D look and then I start eating it and she goes even worse she like daddy eats the dud it was a lot easier to go from

chocolate covered raisins to doodo than it was from dooo back to chocolate covered raisins in uh in her mind and so that's a lesson that I've taken for me oh I've learned I've learned that one we got to be careful with your words right my daughter recently just to go on daughter stories for a second she we were playing a game and she's like hey Mommy doesn't let me do this all the time and so I said well you know it's okay for us just to bend the rules just sometimes you can bend it as long as you're not hurting anybody yeah it's

okay to bend it a little bit oh man I should not have said that anytime she breaks the rule now she goes to Mommy and said daddy told me it's okay to bend the rules a little bit that's right oh oh man dug my own grave there just pass me a shovel you oh yeah hey we're already talking it's crazy we've already talking for an hour so it's time time's flying by um s i' love to take take the plane to a land in even though I'd love to talk to you for longer curious first

where can people find you if they want to hire you and how can my audience or myself help you with your next step into this Executive coaching world yeah sure so my website is Shannon mcculler docomo it's just it's ends in AR so it's MCC L AR Jan mol.com and if uh if you'd like to talk to me about working together just schedule a call on there and we'll we'll chat and see if there's any that we might find exciting to do

together so uh that's it for now I'm I'm you know my my website is is not the best in the world but it's it's getting there I've got a place to write and store stuff now and so it's I'm moving along but it's a start great I'll put the website and I'll put your LinkedIn in the in the chat below and then let's do do a fun rapid fire to launch it all off so all right all right okay so what's your favorite

dessert well Pro there's a place here that sells the best uh apple pie they've got a like a butter pecan crust and man it is good with some ice cream on it so I'd say apple pie and ice cream if I'm ever out there that's my favorite actually apple pie no joke yeah warm apple pie and beat beat that with a little ice cream over cake any day um sweeter Savory in general in general i' say Yeah in general I I more Savory not not not

sweet yeah what's uh what's your favorite leadership book this is aging myself here but I just reread uh the seven habits highly effective people it's amazing yeah yeah that one's great yeah Ste Stephen cvy it is uh it's absolutely it's still very timely it's I think it's great everyone should read it yeah Timeless yeah what's the most controversial helpful advice you've

gotten um controversial helpful advice [Music] um let's see I don't I don't know if this is a good one um you don't have to wait 90 days in a new job to make changes right um if you take

if you take a new job and um people are screaming at each other you don't wait 90 days to act on that so yeah so I'd say 90 days yeah you definitely want to seek first to understand right but it you can uh there are some things you already understand and you know and you can do before 90 days yeah that's good what's your least favorite common

saying or common piece of advice that people hand out do Uno others as you would uh have them do un you I uh I think that is that's a great beginning spot but it's oversimplification because what you would have them do unto you is understand what you want and uh and then so is really do unto others as they want you to do unto them right and that takes more effort so taking the time and and

especially as a leader to understand what your different people need it's like having four children all of them needed and wanted different things you know for one the worst thing you could do to him was send him to his room by himself for the other you know maybe the worst thing you could do was uh ground her from her phone right so but she didn't care it didn't bother her at all to get sent to her room you know so it's figuring out caring enough to notice what people really need and give it them

that and it's uh is the next level yeah so hi bar yeah last one what if you imagine you got 15 to 30 seconds to give some key advice to someone like just a lesson maybe younger version of yourself that you wish you had known and this is your stage you got a 15-second stage what would you say no pressure yeah oh honestly I would say

um it's okay it's okay to treat your boss like a human being it's okay to love your boss and to treat them friendly I I was so afraid of being seen as a suck up you know that I would uh like I remember once a uh great guy that said hey man uh you want to go you want to go get a beer and I'm like well is is everybody getting to go you know like

I'm not I'm not taking I'm not trying to get ahead of these other guys you know what I'm saying so this fear was and I'm you know so I missed so many opportunities to be mentored and to and to be have long-term friendships with these great human beings you just because they're a boss doesn't you know they're they're doe your I felt like they're due my loyalty my obedience you know my respect but you know affection is allowed as well that's I think I took

more than 15 seconds but yeah no that's that's great and I I can confirm some of my favorite moments through my career I've been drinking beers with my boss beside behind a building you know or on top of the roof yeah after a tough job yeah yeah hey Shannon I can't tell you this was such a pleasure I really appreciate you being on and um I'll wrap this up I think it's a good place to close